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FallFest X
Fallfest IX Sessions / ffxi-room-two
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kumi 09-Nov-19 12:00 PM
Everyone please welcome @[TDL] Quinton1721 !
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 12:00 PM
Welcome!
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:00 PM
Hello everybody, as you may know, I am Quinton1721 from The Demon's Light Wiki and today we are going to talk about: Worldbuilding!
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TheKorraFanatic 09-Nov-19 12:01 PM
Interesting, tell me more.
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Dennis 09-Nov-19 12:02 PM
Hello
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Qstlijku 09-Nov-19 12:02 PM
I'm here
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:03 PM
Alright, first off, I have been roleplaying since early 2018, and a lot of worldbuilding went into that. Worldbuilding has been my strong-suit along with dialogue. But enough about that, let's get down to business!
😃 2
Also, feel free to ask any questions along the way as well!
Now, let's talk about an important topic: locations.
Is your universe/world/planet Earth or Earth-based? Is it something else? If you choose the Earth route, much of your world is already built. On the other hand, if you choose to build from scratch, it allows much freedom in worldbuilding.
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 12:08 PM
Regarding locations on a planet, would you put into account different races for the species or just a general one? Like how Humans are depending on where their from?
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kumi 09-Nov-19 12:09 PM
Out of curiosity, which route do you like going the most? Earth based or from scratch? Me personally, I like doing more from scratch, picking the details about my world is fun.
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 12:10 PM
Our fleet has used some established canon for Star Trek, but we've also built much of our own. Most of our worldbuilding has been non-Earth based.
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 12:10 PM
Does Earth based mean M-class planets? (edited)
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Qstlijku 09-Nov-19 12:12 PM
I have a question
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:12 PM
Earth-based is rather something might have happened differently or something small might have changed about Earth, but it is sill regular Earth. @enterDanement
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Qstlijku 09-Nov-19 12:12 PM
What other RPs have you done besides TDL related stuff?
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kumi 09-Nov-19 12:13 PM
Please make sure your questions are on topic to the panel, Qstlijku.
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:13 PM
I prefer starting from scratch to allow as much creativity as possible. @kumi
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kumi 09-Nov-19 12:13 PM
Nice!
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 12:14 PM
I find that using some pre-existing canon and building off that is helpful. It's a wide universe after all. But then, Trek is a bit of a different animal from some other types of SciFi
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:14 PM
Now, the environment of can and will affect your world. What do the people think of the environment and how does it affect them? How do they adapt to live in certain conditions? How do they use their environment?
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kumi 09-Nov-19 12:15 PM
What do you mean by "enviornment" in this case?
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 12:16 PM
Like their surroundings
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:17 PM
Environment meaning the landscape of the location(s). The flora, the fauna, the geo- and hydrological conditions.
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 12:17 PM
Is it a desert only planet, mountainous ranges
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kumi 09-Nov-19 12:17 PM
Ah, alright, that makes more sense. Would weather patterns also be included in that?
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:18 PM
Absolutely.
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 12:18 PM
I've written a few really weird species and groups over time, and the environment and how it effects them should go both ways when you think about building it up from scratch. If you write some unique details of the environment, then you should think about how that is going to effect the species. If you write some unique details of the species/people, then you should think about what in the environment they're from would cause that.
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:20 PM
Does it have steppes, plateaus, or tundras? How about caverns, springs, or grasslands? How about isles? One big continent? Multiple? How do the people adapt the environment? Frequent blizzards? Heatwaves often?
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 12:20 PM
My character is into Xenoecology and made his office next to the Arboretum. While writing one sim, I was detailing how the planet he was on seemed to have gone extinct not too long ago by comparing the different grooves in the rock and tectonic fault lines
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Mecha meme 09-Nov-19 12:21 PM
My take is on worldbuilding from either the bottom up, (IE how does the environment of this planet shape the species that evolve on it, if there are any, which leads to really unique species) or from the top down (IE What kind of environment could create what I want)
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 12:21 PM
When you fashion an environment to create what you want as an outcome, you can create some delightfully strange places.
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kumi 09-Nov-19 12:21 PM
One of my favorite types of conflicts are man vs nature, which definitely includes worldbuilding. If there is a drought in the area your character lives, how does it affect them? Having a conflict built around it is also a cool topic imo
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 12:22 PM
It really depends, it seems, on if you have a specific plot you want for your stories. If you already know the conditions you want, then it's bottom up. If you know what you want the species to be like, it's top down.
I have a question. With worldbuilding, what would you say are the top three things to look at when you don't know where to start? (edited)
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:24 PM
The "man vs. nature" is often one of many conflicts.
A good place to start is the environment (landscape, flora, fauna, food, agriculture), systems (language, religion, measurements, time units, etc).
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 12:27 PM
It's established that the planet Vulcan is fairly hot with plenty rocky terrain and whatnot. So I like to give some kind of quirk to the details if I'm planetside or scanning from my station on the Bridge
Also time on a planet or say a day might look completely different from what you're seeing.
A day on Jupiter is only 10 hours
for example
Another species may think their older than what they are, plus the rate of speed flora grows
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:29 PM
Measurements, such as yards or meters or even seconds are things to work out.
Are you going the Earth route with measurements and leave it as is? No? The "Star Wars" route? Working out a calendar or systems is important but sometimes overlooked. (edited)
Moving on,
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Chase McFly 09-Nov-19 12:35 PM
Do you like building post-apocalyptic worlds?
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:35 PM
Religion is another important topic. Do you wish to include religion in your world? Would there be conflicting religions? Cults? Religious leader? Sacred objects or places? All things to consider.
Post-apocalyptic worlds add a bit of flavor, for sure.
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kumi 09-Nov-19 12:36 PM
I've never really thought of religions in my worlds before, most of them have been generally agnostic
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 12:37 PM
I have a character in 118 who is a professed Christian. I don't rub it in, but it builds the basis of her decision-making and who she is. The same could be said of a planet really.
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:38 PM
Religions aren't needed in every world, but it sure does add an extra layer to the world overall, but can become complex.
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 12:38 PM
Definitely. It depends on the extent to which it impacts the choices a character or race might make.
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 12:39 PM
Religion can really shape a lot about a world, though it all depends on how you want it to be shaped One scifi species I've written operates under a religious doctrine of rule, which specific, near-immortal members leading and convincing the population that they are something to be worshipped by something conceptually applicable to anyone in the species The justification is that the species is notoriously individualistic and selfish, and by promoting a single unquestionable authority, it supplies a single people, which is necessary in the eyes of said authority when they butt heads with their galactic neighbors
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Mecha meme 09-Nov-19 12:39 PM
I think that an incredibly good example for great worldbuilding is actually Dune, in terms of how it handles nature and and the environment
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Chase McFly 09-Nov-19 12:40 PM
Seems my apocalypse comment was ignored
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TheKorraFanatic 09-Nov-19 12:40 PM
Post-apocalyptic worlds add a bit of flavor, for sure.
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Chase McFly 09-Nov-19 12:40 PM
Oh, I see.
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 12:41 PM
Yeah, think McFly! ๐Ÿ˜‰
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:41 PM
Language is often one of the hardest parts of a world, and even I myself stay away from it, but things to consider are: How do non-speakers interact? Pidgin languages? Creoles? Dialects? Are there lingua francas? Any accents?
Extinct languages? Any archaic words? Slang?
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 12:43 PM
What I like to do in regards to language is have the 'foreign' language loosely based on a real-life language, but only in a way that the language is influenced. (Like, though what 'translated' terms sound german, the species itself does not appear to be influenced by other German things such as culture)
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 12:44 PM
I had a panel at a previous convention about developing languages. How do you guys dig into that?
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Reminder BOT 09-Nov-19 12:45 PM
15-minute warning
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 12:45 PM
Or do you just go straight to the universal translator?
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 12:45 PM
I don't recall it from last years. Primarily when I deal with languages, the 'influence' I take is based on how it sounds, rather than how it functions. So far I use translators of some form or another, but that can actually be a cool way to explore more about the species based on how a language has to be translated.
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:45 PM
Oftentimes, art imitates life. Real life inspires many aspects of fictional worlds.
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 12:47 PM
In 118, a race I write for (Al-Leyans) have one dialect of language based on Esperanto. While it saves time in language building, I've found it would be a bit more fun if I had an understanding of how to build one.
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:47 PM
Moving on from language,
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 12:47 PM
One species I made has their own language, for example. While it's verbal and can be directly translated, when spoken I imagine it to sound like the Mฤori language. Another doesn't have the same inflection as other languages, and when translated had to be prefaced with the "tone" intended. "Emotion: Details."
Said latter language also had a specific structure, even when translated, and was always prefaced with the "time," which included the past-present-future tense and how it related to the sentence.
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:49 PM
Food is another important aspect. What do they eat? Where do they get it? Is it organic? Is it processed? How is it prepared? Who sells it? Do they have breakfast waffles? Waffle irons?
Does religion or culture impact what foods can be eaten? Availability?
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 12:50 PM
It can definitely lead to them shaping their culture around a food that becomes famous and highly sought after outside that world. It creates the potential to expand how they see other cultures/worlds depending on how far past the planet itself you want to explore
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:53 PM
Now, lastly, the people themselves not featured are important. What do they do? How much does it affect the world? Are they government employees? Civilians? Dictators? Nomads? Farmers? How are they affected by conflicts? All things to consider.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 12:55 PM
thats probably one part of world building that I neglect. I tend to develop 'the people' as and when we interact with them, whilst the environment gets built up from the start
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:55 PM
Now, as this session is coming to a close, are they any final questions?
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 12:56 PM
I don't really have a question as much as a comment I guess
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 12:56 PM
Is it possible to pay for your services the next time I created a planet? ๐Ÿ˜œ
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:57 PM
All provided for free! (with a small fee of $999)
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 12:57 PM
When you're making a people, a species/group, it's important to develop them on all fronts. If they exist in a military RP, don't just make the details on them pertain to the military aspects of them. It's hard to root much for a military group or understand them when all you know about them is military, you know they have civilians and planets and what have you, but some people just... Forget those
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 12:59 PM
Exactly! How do civilians react, respond, or feel about them?
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 12:59 PM
How's the culture on the home front? What do they do, the people who aren't military? What's life like when you've never held a gun?
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DeathRay5k 09-Nov-19 12:59 PM
It's easy to forget about the background details, until something comes up that derails you completely. I always find it's a good time dea to run ideas past someone I trust to be fairly... robust with feedback
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:00 PM
((Move to #ffxi-overflow-two ))
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 01:00 PM
Alright, thank you all for this lovely session! Goodbye for now!
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kumi 09-Nov-19 01:00 PM
Thank you so much Quinton!
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:02 PM
Hello all and welcome to the panel discussion "Creating an Effective Antagonist" I am your host, panelist, and firestarter Confusedfire. For this panel I will be discussing all of the different ways to make an effective antagonist. First I will discuss the 4 types of an antagonist, then move to some secrets to making one compelling, and finally to a discussion about how to decide whether the GM, AGM, or players write the antagonist.
So let's begin...
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 01:04 PM
Antagonists are some of my favorite things!
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:04 PM
The four types of antagonists are: The Evil Villain, The Everyday Antagonist, The Immoral Entity, and The Internal Struggle:
Type 1: The Evil Villain The Evil Villain is the most common of antagonist. Lord Voldemort and Darth Vader are examples of this type and they both have one thing in common: They are sympathetic. These are the villains that are presented in the struggle between light and darkness.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 01:04 PM
I love an evil SOB
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:04 PM
Type 2: Everyday Antagonist The Everyday Antagonist is not necessarily an evil villain bent on the destruction of the world in which we are writing. Draco Malfoy and Severus Snape are excellent examples of this type of antagonist. Neither character are evil they simply oppose the main character and appear as an obstacle.
Type 3: The Immoral Entity The Immoral Entity is an entire organization in which the main character or main characters are in conflict with. Organization 13 from Kingdom Hearts and The Capitol in Hunger Games are excellent examples of this type. They arenโ€™t necessarily evil, but they are trying to suppress the main character and provides an obstacle to overcome.
Type 4: The Internal Struggle The Internal Struggle is not a person, but rather an emotion that the main character must overcome. This is purely the internal conflict that the character must face throughout the narrative. Landonโ€™s pride in the book โ€˜A Walk to Rememberโ€™ is an excellent example of this type.
The most common of these I feel are the Evil Villains with the least common being the internal struggle. And, I think my favorite to include in stories are the Everyday Antagonist. What are some of your favorites?
Which one rather*
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Stephen Hunter UK 09-Nov-19 01:06 PM
Type 3 is arguably most realistic
A lot of these organisations feel that they are morally right and that's what makes them so dangerous
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DeathRay5k 09-Nov-19 01:07 PM
I love an evil villain, especially when they've got a proper motivation. The best ones kinda have a point, or at least a defined reason to do what they do. The bad guy is the hero of their own story, which is what makes them fun. I really like the Ozymandias from Watchmen type of character.
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Stephen Hunter UK 09-Nov-19 01:08 PM
Killing you is seen as the right thing
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 01:08 PM
I concur. Single antagonists don't truly exist. They are at the head of some evil organisation or a part of it
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:08 PM
Personally it also depends on what type of story you're trying to tell with your group... Look at the Dominion from Deep Space Nine or the referenced Capitol from Hunger Games. The actions by these groups are spelled out across several episodes or movies. It would be the same in the stories we are telling as a group.
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 01:08 PM
4 and 1 are my favorites, specifically. Sometimes a persons worst threat is themselves, and that can really show when someone is pushed far enough. When someones internal struggle becomes large enough, it's quite possible that they become the villain of the overarching story.
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Stephen Hunter UK 09-Nov-19 01:08 PM
@<°°> Yoda Except for serial killers
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:08 PM
And, yes I completely agree that in most circumstances the Evil Villain and Entity go hand in hand
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 01:09 PM
Type 2 - is my favorite. I like somewhat comical but serious villains that overall are just obstacles.
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[22]TheeFlamehead 09-Nov-19 01:09 PM
Honestly, I think two is the most fun to write. Something or someone puts them in opposition to the characters. That can be as severe as a war, or as mundane as taking a stapler
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 01:09 PM
You end up like Artyom in Metro, realizing as he overcomes his internal conflict within, that he's not fighting a real threat, he's about to commit Genocide over a misunderstanding, and it's far too late to take back his final blow. This example, and others, work best when you merge multiple villain types together.
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RaWolfe 09-Nov-19 01:10 PM
Single antagonist is possible, one person can have the right amount of connections build over long period of years and itโ€™s totally possible that the person works in the shadow and then strikes by hitting the right strings
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 01:10 PM
I would argue that you can have single antagonists that aren't sympathetic. As @Stephen Hunter UK mentioned, serial killers can be a single antagonist, but they don't have to be someone that you can relate to or feel sorry for.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:10 PM
The most sensible action to take when it comes to dealing with an antagonist who is the 3rd type is to spread out the conflict over several episodes or missions. (Or, however you break the stories of your respective simming group up). You don't defeat Rome in a day right?
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[RPGW] [22] RachOwl 09-Nov-19 01:11 PM
I personally like 2 and 4 the best. Internal strife can create so many interesting situations! And well, everyday people who aren't truly evil but seem like they are can be so much more interesting than just your plain villain or Evil Organization TM.
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 01:11 PM
In Metro 2033 Artyom is fighting a villain on two fronts, the first one is a more 'imagined' threat, which is Homo Novus, the Dark Ones, something he feels is a threat to the remnants of society in the Metro systems of Russia. The second villain is himself, as he's constantly faced with a mental struggle that something is deeply wrong with what he's doing.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:11 PM
They don't have to that is quite true and many of us would like to state that we do not sympathize with a serial killer. But, what if that character is a tragic character?
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 01:12 PM
Tragic characters are my very specific niche, I love tragic characters.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:12 PM
Not every serial killer antagonist is going to just be there killing people without some sort of event that created a psychotic break. And, perhaps they were once a good character that are acting out of what they see as vigilante justice?
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RaWolfe 09-Nov-19 01:12 PM
It is possible to have a antagonist operating within an company, cooperation or empire.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:13 PM
Yes that is very true @RaWolfe and there are dozens of examples of that ๐Ÿ™‚
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 01:13 PM
Serial Killer antagonist are easy to fall into trope traps of them, but it doesn't take much to make them... Make sense, to make you realize that this "serial killer" is a real person with real reasons behind their actions
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:13 PM
^ exactly
And, that is true with any antagonist which leads me into part two of this discussion panel. In order to make a compelling character we must find some way to add these five secrets:
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DeathRay5k 09-Nov-19 01:14 PM
The insanity trap can be easy to fall into. 'Theybdo bad things because they're crazy' isn't usually satisfying and it's not an accurate reflection on mental illness
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 01:15 PM
I was only making the argument that they don't have to be sympathetic or tragic. An effective antagonist does not necessarily need a fully fledged backstory. Many of them do, but sometimes they are just the plot device that drives the story. Who the serial killer is and what they represent may be irrelevant. What matters is the journey that's taken to bring them to justice. It can still be an effective story.
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 01:15 PM
The Shadow Stalker from Warframe is an excellent example. On the front, he's an absolute edgelord who hunts down Tenno (The PC faction) over seemingly random slights against the inhabitants of the solar system. However, when it explains more on why he's doing it, and what he is, and what happens to him when he nearly reaches his goal gives you an idea that... This man wasn't always a villain.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:15 PM
They are: Humanity, To them they are the "Hero", Ambition, Menace, and Presence
1) Humanity Both your fellow writers in your writing group and the people who read your posts need to be able to relate in some way to the antagonist. By humanizing them in a similar fashion that a tragedy humanizes the villain the antagonist is more relatable.
2) They โ€œAreโ€ The Hero In the mind of the antagonist they may see themselves as the hero fighting the good fight for what they see as a just cause. Think about the Maquis in Star Trek they are by the very definition antagonists for both the Federation and Cardassian Union. But, even the most loyal of Starfleet are sympathetic to their cause. Also remember the phrase, โ€œThe road to hell is paved with good intentions.โ€
3) Ambition What is the motivation for the antagonist? In 3 of the 4 types listed above the antagonists had some motivation some ambition to their cause. Even in the 4th type โ€œThe Internal Struggleโ€ there is some semblance of ambition. The opposite of this may also be true, but every action has some motivation even if it is unclear at first.
4) Menace Sometimes the โ€œbad guyโ€ does win. They must be of some threat to the well-being of society or the protagonist. The best example of this is Professor James Moriarty from Sherlock Holmes as he was specifically designed to defeat Sherlock Holmes.
5) Presence Even if the antagonist hides in the shadows and operates from there the world around them should feel the effect of the antagonist. Either via minions or people who are being forced to work for the antagonist. Voldemort hides in the shadows for much of the Harry Potter series, but he is always there ready to grab power. And, as time goes forward and it gets worse for the Wizarding World the effects are felt more and more.
So in what ways would you make your represented antagonist fit the bill for these 5 that are listed above?
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 01:18 PM
Number 5 can be exaggerated on by combining more than one villain, of different types. For example, you have an organization, or a much stronger group villain suddenly teaming with a much less controlled, more dangerous "serial killer" villain. You have the resources, controlled supply and planning of the former, with the crazed persistent determination of the latter.
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RaWolfe 09-Nov-19 01:19 PM
I donโ€™t know if making the antagonist more human to be more recognize is a must. An cold blooded emotionless person that is indoctrinated by what ever manifest or in general a humanoid species is required. If you can explain the bad guy well or even make certain plot twist then you are golden
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:19 PM
That is a fair suggestion @Wallflower because you can throw your main characters or players off the scent... Perhaps they think this minor antagonist is responsible while the main "player" is the real threat?
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 01:20 PM
And it also allows you to explore the latter antagonist more. What can you find out about the 'serial killer' when suddenly their rage is being used to take advantage of them?
What happens when suddenly, it's quite apparent that the "villain" you grew to detest is being victimized?
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:21 PM
And, bear in mind that not every character is going to fit all 5 of these ideas... As @RaWolfe pointed out not every antagonist is going to be humanized it really is dependent upon what you want your players on your simm to get out of it and the people who read it.
This leads me to my next question... When is it best to humanize an antagonist and when is it not? When is it best to have their presence felt and when is it not?
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[22]TheeFlamehead 09-Nov-19 01:23 PM
I love using subtle lurkings. The players can actively feel that they are being watched and observed, before the "villan" reveals themselves
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 01:24 PM
I'd say that every villain should at least be understood, if not humanized. Even they're so far removed from our concept of morality that they can't be humanized then that's one thing, but they should at least be understood before they're truly faced
It's difficult to care much for a conflict when the villain you face can simply be reduced to "faceless opponent #112345"
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:26 PM
And, remember in the best stories our heroes, our written characters, do not kill the antagonist unless it is needed... The characters we write have their flaws yes, but they also should be represented as moral creatures regardless if the antagonist is as well
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 01:26 PM
Humanizing works well when you're still introducing your antagonist to your audience/other role players. You help them understand what motivates the antagonist, their hopes and fears, etc. It's not appropriate to humanize them though once you've past that point of no return where they've done something truly evil or irredeemable. Once you've shown your antagonist to have done something to make others hate them, trying to then say, "oh but they're not really that bad" is going to feel forced
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 01:27 PM
Well, I disagree, humanizing at that point isn't the same as trying to redeem them
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:27 PM
I think we have to define what irrerdeemable is as well... And, yes there are obvious choices there... But, it also depends upon the character's individual morals as well. Every character has different tolerances when it comes to the acts of others.
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 01:28 PM
At that point you're reinforcing that a person committed that crime/atrocity, not just a soulless force of evil
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RaWolfe 09-Nov-19 01:28 PM
The strong point of four is most of the time forgotten in stories. The bad guy gets defeated by the good guys and get shot away like team rocket. But the catch for a Good antagonist is that if they win, the good guys get b*tch slapped and suffer the consequences of what has happened. Which these days more and more comes in movies and series
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 01:28 PM
I still disagree. It really depends on the antagonist. Conflicts typically fall into one of three categories: man against man, man against nature, and man against self. An antagonist that's only marginally defined can almost fall into man against nature. Some very effective villains have followed that pattern. The Joker from The Dark Knight I believe qualifies. Or the serial killer in Se7en. Neither really had clear goals or motivations. They just were, and the heroes had to stop them.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:29 PM
That also falls back onto the 4th type listed before... Is this an internal struggle? Which is hit on the head with "man against self"
I would argue that The Joker represents Chaos for Chaos sake
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 01:31 PM
Internal struggle can apply, but in that case the internal struggle is driven by an external force. The plot itself is overcoming the internal struggles in order to apprehend the external force.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:31 PM
When you are coming up with an antagonist character to use on your respective simms what sorts of qualities do you look to include or not include in them? What do you think appeals to your players and yourself?
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RaWolfe 09-Nov-19 01:32 PM
That really depends on the story and the setting you as GM want to go
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:32 PM
How so @RaWolfe ?
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RaWolfe 09-Nov-19 01:33 PM
Mmm the antagonist is sometimes shaped by the story that is made. Thatโ€™s how I approach it atleast
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:34 PM
Which leads me into the third part of this conversation... How you decide who writes the antagonist. Here we, as GM's have 3 options: The GM writes the antagonist, Your Asst. GM writes them, or you pick a player (or the player asks to write one) to write them.
1) The GM Is there a specific antagonist you are trying to write as the GM? If so then you are the person to write them. Sometimes it is best for the GM to write the antagonist simply because they know exactly what experience they wish the writers to have. Or, they want to give obstacles for their writers to overcome.
2) The AGM Your Assistant GM is there to help guide your writing group and therefore should have some role in both creating and writing the story that is being portrayed for your writers to react to. Perhaps you want to let your AGM take the reins on the entire situation? This is a great opportunity for the AGM to practice running the story themselves, especially if they desire to run one of their own.
3) One of the other members of the simm There are many reasons why a member may be chosen to write the antagonist. Sometimes as a GM it is nice to have a break from writing the obstacles for the other writers to overcome and other times a member may have a great idea for an antagonist. Allowing your members to write the antagonist with no guidance or perhaps a small amount of guidance allows them the chance to really spread their wings.
So I'm really hitting the nail on the head with this one... But, as a GM how do you choose which one of these three you're going to go with?
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RaWolfe 09-Nov-19 01:36 PM
GM you get control over it, with AGM you can dance around and surprise people. But player, player perspective is unexpected and untouched and always in with no idea what twist is coming.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 01:37 PM
I might choose someone who is less likely to play a starring role in the mission. Perhaps if we aren't flying anywhere, I might pick my Flight Ops. For me, it is down to trust. Ultimately, if I don;t trust the person to write the character and develop the plot, then they don't get picked.
🙂 1
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:38 PM
What if the player approaches you @[GEC] Kai1701E and says "Hey I have an idea for an antagonist that could be used for this mission?"
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 01:39 PM
As the "gm" for my group/ship, I prefer to pick a player. It's often times an exciting opportunity for someone else to try writing from a different POV they're not used to and a character that's very different from their regular. The biggest issue I've found is just making sure they understand that it will be okay that their antagonist is defeated at the end. Sometimes, people get a little attached and then disappointed when they're defeated or captured. But while an antagonist that eludes capture to become recurring can be fun, if all your antagonists end up like that, it also takes a toll on the rest of the crew/role players who feel their characters aren't ever successful then ๐Ÿ˜›
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 01:39 PM
I'd talk with them of course, maybe work out a way for it to be used in this mission, or a future one
But still, trust. Essentially, such a character is playing a leadership role in developing that sim for that mission.
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 01:40 PM
One of my favorite missions that I ever ran involved one of my other players writing for the antagonist. I set him up with some guidelines, and he made the character his own. We were both trying to diplomatically win over a leader of an independent planet. I represented the views of my character and the Federation, while he represented the antagonist and her organization. The reason it was so fun was that I never quite knew what his points and counter points were going to be, which played well for both of us. It was an active negotiation, with both of us making valid arguments, and putting the monarch, who was played by a third member of my crew, in a position where he couldn't choose. Which led to the next plot point of the villain deciding that diplomacy was a waste of time, and ordered the invasion of the planet anyway.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:40 PM
I think that needs to have a bit of balance... Our primary characters need to take most of the focus though I am curious about how each of you would handle a prospective player approaching you and saying "I have an idea for a character but they would fit the bill as an antagonist"?
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 01:41 PM
I say go for it, but they need to be prepared for whatever guidelines the GM may impose
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 01:41 PM
I would actually be intrigued.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:41 PM
That is an excellent example @[PF] AlexM how did it ultimately turn out?
Because in that example the antagonist could win
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 01:42 PM
Personally, I think the people behind the game are the most critical part of making an RP attractive
I've most enjoyed when I was made to feel welcome. Details about the world...come second in my opinion
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:43 PM
As a GM myself I feel that it really depends on the and the writer... I'm more inclined to accept someone I've written with or have seen their writing style before accepting them as the antagonist. It also depends how they intend on progressing through the story. Having that constant antagonist is really great, but sometimes there needs to be that watershed moment where the player decides if they want to stay the antagonist or not. They also need to decide when they want to have their character help the others and when they want to be a hindrance
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 01:43 PM
The best time it worked for me was when I didn;t know who was playing the antagonist. I let my XO pick the player or themselves, then I had to react and guide the plot.
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 01:44 PM
Our ultimate plan was that the planet was going to fall to the enemy. It was part of a larger story arc. At the time the Federation and the Sojourners were both vying for power in the region, trying to gain support against the other. The Sojourner approach was if they can't get the support peacefully, they would just forcibly deny Starfleet. That antagonist would make a few appearances, and I do intend to bring her back to fully close out her arc.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:44 PM
How did that turn out @[GEC] Kai1701E ?
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 01:44 PM
Awesome. We had a mutiny on the ship, it was great fun to play out and we used it over several arcs.
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[22]Blondie 09-Nov-19 01:44 PM
That sounds interesting @[GEC] Kai1701E
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 01:44 PM
It was a long time ago though
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Reminder BOT 09-Nov-19 01:45 PM
15-minute warning
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 01:45 PM
But it took an element of control away and I had to actually formulate the CO's response in real time almost.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:45 PM
That is something that is rarely seen I bet it was all sorts of fun... Were the mutineers the antagonist in that situation or were those opposing the mutiny?
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 01:45 PM
they were antagonists.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:46 PM
So we have 15 minutes left so I'll open the floor to all of you... What are some of the antagonists you've come up with? Which one of the 4 types did they fill? Did you or someone else write them?
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 01:47 PM
I've always been a fan of the long game. It can be fun to sow seeds across several missions and then spring the reveal that there was someone working behind the scenes the whole time. I think having a player interested in joining specifically for that purpose could be very interesting. Although I would agree that it would be better if as a GM you were better acquainted with the player in question.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:48 PM
On Onnar we had the Celestians whom ultimately won by forcing the ship out of the Gamma Quadrant though they did share a database full of secrets to try and entice the ship to stay away. We may revisit them one day, but for now that isn't in the cards.
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Stephen Hunter UK 09-Nov-19 01:48 PM
I've done a few Soviet bloc officals in my spy games
The KGB is a cross between Type Two and Three
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 01:49 PM
With the ship (smaller part of the whole) that I write with, we generally have our ship staff (more experienced players) write for the major ones, but open up smaller roles to junior (less experienced) officers. I've most enjoyed having someone else write for an antagonist that my character interacts with. It's more fun not knowing what's going to happen.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 01:49 PM
I always set up separate accounts, and sometimes emails, on whatever platform I'm using so that the player can post anonymously which makes it even more interesting
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 01:50 PM
But doesn't that complicate things with tracking contribution?
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:50 PM
I think it's all a balancing act... Some antagonists (and their type) are easier to write in Trek if you're stationary vs. a ship and vice versa. In other genres it's really a question of how large your playground is.
@[RPGW] [22] RachOwl made something called a ticker tape for the anonymous thing as kind of a rumor mill on Astraea which is quite entertaining sometimes
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 01:51 PM
As CO, I feel that often I'm going to be the one directly interacting with the antagonist. Certainly not always, but often. So I do enjoy having someone else take that role. It's usually a more rewarding experience for me because I can really focus on my character, who so often gets pushed aside in order for me to drive the plot for everyone else. And I think it's rewarding for the other players to get to do something a little different.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 01:51 PM
if the story is flowing @[SB118] Lael Roesk I don;t care too much about contributions.
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 01:51 PM
Ticker tape is fun... LOL
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[RPGW] [22] RachOwl 09-Nov-19 01:51 PM
It wasn't my idea, I stole it from someone else. But it has been fun!
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 01:51 PM
ah. I guess we're a bit more specific where I write. it helps us with story flow.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:52 PM
It's the unknown I think when your players write the antagonist... That's why I generally let my players do it over me so that my reactions with my character are more genuine
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 01:52 PM
Exactly. That's my preference.
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 01:52 PM
that's a valid and interesting point
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:53 PM
And, when you're running a space station regardless what genre it's really difficult to task every player with something so having one of them do the antagonist is rewarding
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 01:53 PM
That's what made those negotiations so interesting. I was getting frustrated because they kept coming up with such great retorts, and then I got excited when I came back with an equally good counter. It was some of my favorite bit of writing.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:54 PM
For example on VFY I have one player who is writing a 12 year old PC (Playing Character) so giving them things to do that push the story has always been difficult. In our next set of missions the player will be writing their character as something of the antagonist (but not the fire starter antagonist)
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 01:54 PM
There's a lot to be said for OOC tasks though. I think that's where our group sees a good bit of individual contribution
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 01:54 PM
I agree with that as well, CF. Starbases can be tough to include everyone in every mission. But giving players an opportunity to play the guest roles can be rewarding for all.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:55 PM
So I don't really have anything further in regards to this panel so I'll leave the last 5 minutes for people to say something about antagonists, ask questions, give suggestions, etc
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 01:55 PM
Variety is the spice of life, as they say. Sometimes, having the opportunity to do such a role can rejuvinate players
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 01:55 PM
As I've moved into more leadership ranks, I've found it's more rewarding to write with others for an antagonist and see the creativity they bring to it
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:56 PM
Sometimes our players can come up with things that we don't even think about I bet the negotiations on your simm were all sorts of entertaining @[PF] AlexM
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 01:57 PM
And it helps keep the GM on their toes.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 01:59 PM
Anyway... That concludes this panel on "Effective Antagonists" "Setting various fires" and so on... Erm I mean not setting various fires >.> ... If you would like to continue the conversation we can move to #ffxi-overflow-two otherwise prepare yourselves for the next panel and get drinks at the bar... ( @[22] greenfelt is picking up the tab)
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:00 PM
Hello everyone thatโ€™s here. My name is Kai and I am a recovering chocoholicโ€ฆ wait, wrong room. My bad. This is the place for my other addiction โ€“ simming! We are all here today because we have a passion for writing in our different genres and we want to come together with the players in our different communities. That is a very admirable thing and I want to thank you all for being here to participate.
Q&A Running a Successful Sim By reading the title of this panel, you would be forgiven for thinking that this session might be more tailored to Game Masterโ€™s (GMโ€™s), but you could not be more wrong! Running a successful sim is tricky business โ€“ I should know, I have run sims that have lasted, and I have run sims that have failed in relatively short order. What I have come to learn is that EVERYONE invested in the sim, GM or otherwise, is crucial to its success. The purpose of this panel is not for me to lecture you, or tell you how to run a successful sim. Instead, the purpose of this panel is to ask questions, learn from each otherโ€™s experience and hopefully have everyone leave with a little extra information, or a cool idea, or some hints and tricks to take with them in the future.
The hints and tips I hope people pick up here today should be transferrable across genres since every sim we run is a game first and foremost and is there for the players to enjoy.
So, Iโ€™m going to start off with the first question. In your opinion, what makes a sim successful?
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[22]Blondie 09-Nov-19 02:04 PM
Plot and players?
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[22]TheeFlamehead 09-Nov-19 02:04 PM
Dedicated players, a story they are invested in, and a positive environment
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:04 PM
So not post count then?
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 02:04 PM
Quality > quantity
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:05 PM
^that.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:06 PM
I entirely agree, quality over quantity, but I feel there has to be an element of quantity too when judging activity of players.
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 02:07 PM
For me, I've found it's a willingness and flexibility of those running it to adjust plots according to writer interest.
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[22]Blondie 09-Nov-19 02:07 PM
true
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:08 PM
A crew who carries the concept you've come up with.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:08 PM
If, for example, a players count suddenly drops, or even trickles off, that can be a sign that something is wrong and that something needs to be addressed with the player, so while I don't actually care too much about numbers, they are a useful tool for keeping an eye on your players and their interest/developing situations. And, I agree with both @[16th Fleet] Kate and @[SB118] Lael Roesk
Being prepared to adapt and change is crucial, because if you have a good, active crew, there are always going to be spanners in the works of even the best laid plans and plots
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:09 PM
Having a good relationship OOC helps with that too. Because you can plan around who might be gone/similar.
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 02:09 PM
I know that with player dropoffs I've seen, I have a tough time pinning down a reason
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Beautiful Night 09-Nov-19 02:09 PM
Define successful?
long lasting? active?
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:10 PM
That is the eternal question @Beautiful Night
What makes a sim successful in your eyes?
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:10 PM
I think creating a team is very important. A team of writers that together creates amazing stories. Without a good relationship OOC you have nothing.
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 02:10 PM
Successful to me has always been involvement. My game has been active since 2001 and many of my initial players are still with us
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Rich 09-Nov-19 02:11 PM
For me, fun factor. Because if you cant have fun then why are we here?
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:11 PM
Low number sims can also be successfull.
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 02:11 PM
Although, I admit, at times this has been offputting to new people
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[22]Blondie 09-Nov-19 02:11 PM
having the occ relationship with others in the sim can be helpful
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Stephen Hunter UK 09-Nov-19 02:11 PM
Three is the minimum
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 02:11 PM
In the best missions we've written it was because people were excited about the plot...adding in strange twists that made the story unique. Depending on the base plot that can be hard for less experienced writers
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:11 PM
OOC is crucial and, prior to discord, I found that lacking a little since a move away from Forums.
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[22]Blondie 09-Nov-19 02:12 PM
I agree
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:12 PM
Same, because I also am XO on a live sim and we currently have a semi-working email string and a discord room as the old site's coding messed up.
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Stephen Hunter UK 09-Nov-19 02:12 PM
Two is very hard in genera;.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:13 PM
I think if you have only 3 players, you should really ask yourself if you want to continue. Why only 3? Why do others not want to join?
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Stephen Hunter UK 09-Nov-19 02:13 PM
There are further comments I could make, but it would lower the tone.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:13 PM
Ok, so, to focus a little, we've determined that A) Quality over quantity B) OOC relationships and creating a team that can work together C) High involvement are great starting points for judging that a sim is successful (edited)
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 02:13 PM
You do need a fair number to successfully run a sim IMO. For me, I feel less than 10 people isn't worth it
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Beautiful Night 09-Nov-19 02:13 PM
is it really quantity over quality
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:14 PM
WRONG WAY AROUND lol
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Beautiful Night 09-Nov-19 02:14 PM
just checking
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:14 PM
you get two chocolate bars lol
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[22]TheeFlamehead 09-Nov-19 02:14 PM
@[SB118] Lael Roesk Depends on the type of simm. On some of my projects, 10 would be entirely too many
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Beautiful Night 09-Nov-19 02:14 PM
though I'd ague the two are not exclusive
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:14 PM
This question of quantity of players is actually an interesting one.
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 02:15 PM
We're a Trek group though, so that does make a difference. Different duty posts and specialties...the kind of plots we run are more fun with 10-12 different perspectives
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:15 PM
I have seen sims with dozens of people that produce barely anything, but then I have seen games with 6 dedicated players who post like they have nothing better to do in life
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[22]Blondie 09-Nov-19 02:15 PM
nothing better to do
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:15 PM
Same, seen that many times.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:15 PM
@[16th Fleet] Kate is right, though.
If you have only 3 players, what do we do about that?
Is it worth carrying on?
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 02:16 PM
you're right about dedication. players need to be invested or it doesn't do much to have 10 lukewarm writers
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:16 PM
To be blunt. What are you doing wrong that you have only three.
👍 2
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[22]Blondie 09-Nov-19 02:16 PM
if everyone is having fun, sure
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:17 PM
And it could be a new sim that only has three but they are posting to draw in interest too.
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 02:17 PM
Active RPs get more attention than dead or slow ones for sure
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:18 PM
That's a good point. Getting posting ASAP is crucial to showing a sim has legs and drawing people in. I have seen games that stall because GM's wait to get started until they have the magic number
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:18 PM
That's a different situation. At least if you really just started. But having only three after a couple of months. Either you're recruiting wrong or your concept is keeping people away.
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DeathRay5k 09-Nov-19 02:18 PM
I might be a bit of a snob, and I apologise if this comes across that way, but I'd rather a smaller group of good, active players than some who sit and add a few words every once in a blue moon.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:18 PM
I entirely agree @DeathRay5k
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:18 PM
I was talking about sims that have dropped to only having three left.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 02:18 PM
Size is certainly relative.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:19 PM
I think sims with 6-10 writers can be just as good as sims with more then 10
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 02:19 PM
Agreed
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:19 PM
A larger group also brings other stuff. Like more work for the Command Team OOC.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 02:19 PM
The number of players compared to the age of the sim and frequency of posts... however that formula works out is crucial for a newcomer to decide whether or not to jump in.
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DeathRay5k 09-Nov-19 02:19 PM
I think more than 10 can be difficult to manage, depending on the nature of it
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:19 PM
Keeping people engaged in the story, especially if they don't hold a high position too.
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 02:19 PM
I think the community is just as inportant though as the story
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 02:19 PM
Agreed.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:20 PM
I think, to address @[16th Fleet] Kate 's point, at that point you have to really look at the sim. What is going on to cause that. I don;t want to step too much on @[22] greenfelt 's toes for later on's motivation panel, but I find it is good to have an outsider you trust look over your site every once in a while
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:20 PM
I really forgot that when I started and really struggled finding a good way to keep everything going.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 02:20 PM
I've got 14 players on one of my sims. I can definitely say that the higher the number, the harder to manage.
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DeathRay5k 09-Nov-19 02:20 PM
3 is concerning, 4 is probably sustainable though, if they're a good core group
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 02:20 PM
How do you communicate with your command team? I think that's really a big one some of us have private discord channels while others us other media like GroupMe.
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 02:20 PM
I know what you mean, I have 16 greenie
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 02:20 PM
Step on my toes all you want, @[GEC] Kai1701E. They're just felt and lack feeling.
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:21 PM
Shakes head
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:21 PM
Do you even have to HAVE a command team @[PF] Confusedfire ? Does it help to make a sim successful or can it be a hindrance?
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 02:21 PM
My record is 25... loved the group, players were happy, but mods weren't
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:21 PM
Hell yes, I couldn't do it all by myself.
And I tried for a while and was going crazy
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:21 PM
It helps my sim, I have my XO and 2XO in the command chat for idea bouncing and such.
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 02:22 PM
I think having a command team really helps for bouncing ideas around.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:22 PM
I also use a seperate section in our discord.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 02:22 PM
I do have a command team of 5 ๐Ÿ˜
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 02:22 PM
Command teams are extremely helpful.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 02:22 PM
Though my simm has 25 writers so command team sizes vary
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:22 PM
So, having a trusted 'command' team is important then? And, let me ask you this then... do you always go for people you know in these teams, or do you bring other people in?
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 02:22 PM
the size of the group is really going to depend on the setting of course as well. In StarBase 118, our ships tend to be your traditional trek set up with a captain, XO, and all the usual roles, so 10-12 works well because you have your department heads and then junior officers for those department heads to interact with. I could see though smaller numbers work well for a sim set in a more intimate setting, especially outside the traditional "trek crew" framework
(and it sounds like we'll get something like that with Star Trek: Picard)
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DeathRay5k 09-Nov-19 02:23 PM
Bringing people in can work, bit you've all got to be able to give and take constructive criticism
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:23 PM
Smaller sims work with NPC's more.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:23 PM
Absofrickenlutely @DeathRay5k
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 02:23 PM
I prefer people I know, but I'm open to people I've never written with as having a shot
People on the command team have to be reliable and trustworthy
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[22]TheeFlamehead 09-Nov-19 02:24 PM
I try to choose people who have proved themselves within the fiction itself
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:24 PM
I've found that when I am at my gm best, I am listening to my players, I am changing what they dont like, and I am implementing their ideas more than my own.
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DeathRay5k 09-Nov-19 02:24 PM
If they're recommended by someone you trust, then it can be really good
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 02:24 PM
It's always good to have different perspectives in your command team, but there does need to be a base level of trust and proven reliability, etc.
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 02:24 PM
@[GEC] Kai1701E Yes and no. I think before I bring someone in to the command team on my sim, I'm probably going to need to know them and know what kind of writers they can be. I'm probably not going to bring someone I never met before in and expect them to start running major plotlines.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:24 PM
It's also because of trust. I give my XO access to certain sections. I'm not sure I could do that with a complete stranger.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:24 PM
But I do, more often than not, go to people I have experience of writing with (not necessarily commanding with)
Good point there, @[16th Fleet] Kate
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 02:25 PM
That said, I'm also in support of bringing in new viewpoints. It doesn't have to be someone who I've known for years. But I would want to at least know them well enough to feel that I can trust them.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:26 PM
I have given XOs a tone of 'powers' on my websites in the past and, had they not been trusted, they could have done some serious damage.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 02:26 PM
Assistant GMs have to be people who "gel" with you. This is why I advise people not to "dash" to starting their own sim. Jump in as a player for a while and find a good creative partner. Someone who you can trust to have your back.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:27 PM
For me command team and getting new ideas are completely seperate things. My crew can submit an idea for a story and run it. Or if someone has another idea they are welcome to come to me. Like a crazy idea for a chracter or something. We'll work togehter to make it work.
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 02:28 PM
I agree, @[22] greenfelt. I would caution anyone new to running a sim against just jumping in. Having at least your AGM known and willing to help you develop your sim will go a long way in those crucial first sixth months.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 02:28 PM
Some groups also have a formalized structure to help. For instance, while promotions up to lt. cmdr. are at the discretion of the captain, commander and up follow a process laid out by our group's constitution to vet and ensure our COs all have had the same standard of training, which includes things like taking part in our group's academy and so forth. This means that even if say I don't know another writer personally, I know that he or she has a certain set of skills or experience that would make me more confident in putting them on my command team, etc.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:29 PM
I'll give two more minutes and then I have a burning question lol
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:29 PM
Even if it is only to remind you that you're idea is indeed good and you just need to pull through the hard starting months.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:29 PM
So, to move away from the command team... how do you guys get your players involved in the running of your sim, in the hope of keeping it successful?
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 02:29 PM
readies free fire extinguisher
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 02:29 PM
I think learning to be okay with delegating is an important lesson for all COs.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:30 PM
Giving them the freedom to write and let them contribute ideas and stories
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 02:30 PM
The more you let others take care of the day to day, the more they'll feel invested that it's their group, too
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 02:30 PM
I give players the opportunity to develop their own side quests so to speak
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:30 PM
I've learned to bounce ideas around in general chat too. And I let people bring things to me that they might want to do, an open door policy.
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 02:30 PM
One of the things i've done is create departmental channels in discord with roles set, so my XO and I can talk to the department heads and give them information behind the scenes without giving everything away to everyone, and then letting them guide their own departments to where they want/need to be
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 02:30 PM
I like to set out a list of goals. It's only followed about half the time, and the other half, my writers come up with something entirely better.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:31 PM
I love that @[PF] Amethyst
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 02:31 PM
In my experience, a lot of players are eager to help, so let them have their own special responsibility for the group's upkeep: maybe they take care of the wiki updates or someone is the go to avatar maker, etc. and of course show your appreciation for their work
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:31 PM
I use that as well. Can be really handy. Specially when you sim has lots of different aspects to it.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 02:31 PM
I always encourage questions and an open door policy with my players too. I've found that those really do help keep people engaged.
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 02:31 PM
I've found by giving them a destination and letting them get there however they choose they're more proactive and interactive, so since doing that I've had more players come to be on the side and say "Hey, I have this crazy idea, what do you think of...."
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:31 PM
You've got to be approachable
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:32 PM
And the biggest thing I noticed. If the CT is active and engaged. So will the rest.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:32 PM
Leading from the front, so to speak?
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 02:32 PM
So true.
The entire Command Team has to be engaged.
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:32 PM
I've had COs that weren't approachable and it made me uncomfortable as a simmer.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 02:32 PM
Yeah, starts from the top
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 02:32 PM
I generally like to create a sandbox. Set the stage, establish the guest characters and the situation, and get at least the department heads on board with the main objectives. Then encourage the players to play in that sandbox. Of course, sometimes that's easier said than done.
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 02:33 PM
How often do others participate in outside of character activities?
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:33 PM
Not really leading. Simply being active. Tagging, posting, sending invites to new JP's. Brainstorming about new stories.
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 02:33 PM
Knowing your crew goes a long way to help too. My crew and I chat a lot...
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 02:33 PM
You know a group is headed in the wrong direction once it becomes obvious to the other players that the GM doesn't seem to care anymore or doesn't take their concerns seriously
And that includes being active themselves, simming to the standard they want to see from others and so forth
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:34 PM
I have an IC Lounge, so we play our characters in there on discord but it has nothing to do with the current story. Tends to be all the food...
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Thanks Kai... ๐Ÿ˜›
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:35 PM
Agreed on that point @[SB118] Rahman
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 02:36 PM
I've found for instance that it's been helpful to set a tone of expected communication among everyone when someone has to be away for a few days. We'd been having a few players go silent for sometimes a couple of weeks which is very disruptive in our group where the pace is generally 2-3 sims a week from each player. By making sure to update the crew on my own need to take a day or two to respond and having my command team model that as well, we helped remodel the ship's "culture" so that everyone else saw that this is just the expected and that it isn't a big deal if they need to let others know they're busy, etc.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:37 PM
So, one final question from me and then I'll open the floor. For those of you that have run sims that have been around for a while and might well be deemed successful, what would you do if a player approached you and said "I'm interested, but I am very daunted at the prospect of joining a team/sim that has been around for a while. I'd be an outsider..."
I know I have felt that way a few times, even after so long and with all my experience of being a GM.
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:38 PM
Been there, done that. You make them feel welcome, both OOC and IC. Start up things that are fun with them, get to know what it is they are thinking the sim is about and what they want to see.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:38 PM
Invite them to join our discord so they can experience that we love to welcome in new people.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 02:39 PM
^^^ to both answers
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 02:39 PM
Sometimes getting one player to 'buddy' with them can be helpful, it gives them an easy in to interact with someone straight away (edited)
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aio 09-Nov-19 02:39 PM
Discord has changed how CO's can talk to players. I love it. It's so easy to join, that you can have someone totally new join it, and ask questions there and then.
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[22]Blondie 09-Nov-19 02:39 PM
help make them feel welcome, but not excluded with the comradery
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:39 PM
I had my newest player who's been a real life friend for YEARS say she wanted to join, I brought her into the discord after talking to her on Facebook and she got to know the goofiness that is my sim.
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aio 09-Nov-19 02:40 PM
I've heard it's goofy :P, though back to the conversation topic ๐Ÿ˜›
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:41 PM
It was ๐Ÿ˜›
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 02:41 PM
I find it helps to drop the ranks in OOC communication. It's fine if they're intimidated in character as an ensign meeting their captain, but I want them to know I'm just a fellow Trekkie and that they're now surrounded by their fellow nerds when they first get welcomed aboard ๐Ÿ˜› (edited)
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 02:41 PM
Engaging with people with OOC activities helps people stay engaged as well as doing interviews with them so there's a personal connection to be felt and a sense of community like Discord and forums.
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 02:41 PM
One of the things we started to do in SF1 is use mentors to help players acclimate and join our community. They work with the players to get them involved. (edited)
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 02:42 PM
can confirm that he was intimidated by the Captain when he was a green ensign ๐Ÿ˜‚
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[RPGW] [22] RachOwl 09-Nov-19 02:42 PM
I try to engage with the new players both OOC and IC. I often talk to them about what they think would work best for their character coming in, and encourage them and others to work on joint posts with each other.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 02:42 PM
And now people are calling @enterDanement "sir"... ๐Ÿ˜›
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 02:43 PM
Its a strange feeling isn't it @enterDanement
I tell people not to call me that. I'm Will, not Sir. (edited)
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:43 PM
I don't use ranks OOC either. We're all equal. I might be the sims CO, but that only means I (try to) lead the group. I'm no better then anyone else. I don't have any better ideas then the others.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 02:43 PM
@[RPGW] [22] RachOwl Yeah, asking them about what character arcs they might want to see with their character is a great step, too. Show that you're invested in wanting to help them tell their own story and add it to your group's long history
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:44 PM
I'm going to name and shame here... I hope they will forgive me. I have always been intrigued at @[PF] AlexM 's sim in Pegasus Fleet. I've thought about joining for some time, but I'm anxious about that because I don't know who else would be there and I very much tend to stick with people I know and have written with plenty of times before.
So to take that leap would be quite a big one for me. Especially as, to my knowledge, Alex and I have not written together before. (edited)
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 02:44 PM
Sometimes we need to leave our comfort zones @[GEC] Kai1701E
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:45 PM
It's not so easy for some people
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 02:45 PM
I know how hard that is
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:45 PM
And offcourse you work together with a new player to get them involved. Both IC and OOC. You try to jointly come up with a story to get the character active.
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Reminder BOT 09-Nov-19 02:45 PM
15-minute warning
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 02:45 PM
I joined a sim recently where the bulk of the crew had been writing together for fourteen years. It's intimidating and overwhelming.
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[SARP] Wes 09-Nov-19 02:45 PM
I agree with that greenfelt.
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 02:45 PM
but it can be fun too
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 02:45 PM
At first it was. I had my character glance around thinking they were talking to someone else @[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 02:46 PM
I don't think we have. But that shouldn't always be a barrier. I suppose that's an interesting condundrum. The GM thinks that they and their sim is open and inviting, but they don't realize that prospective players are intimidated about joining. If they did, they would probably approach them a bit differently.
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[SARP] Wes 09-Nov-19 02:47 PM
I find a lot of players seem to be intimidated about talking to the staff of a community but really I'm just happy to have people interested in my setting and RP in the first place and I love it when I get questions or can help.
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 02:47 PM
I'm not going to deny its tough to join new games some times, especially when you've been with people for a long time. I have had issue with it. I will be honest when I say I recently did though and it was one of my best decisions because it revitalized my interest in many respects and I made several new friends that I deeply appreciate.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:47 PM
Like, lurkers. I used to hate it when people would come in to Discord and lurk. But I realised quickly, players sometimes need to suss out the sim and the players before jumping in, unlike others who take the leap
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 02:48 PM
These communities mean a great deal to me, I would never personally promote an idea I thought would harm anyone.
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 02:49 PM
I found this to be interesting. A few years back Pegasus Fleet actually tried to remove ranks from the admiralty members, and just instead be ourselves. The thought was that we would be more inviting as random people, not as admirals. The rest of the community were pretty overwhelmingly against it. They thought that the ranks and characters created more of an image of authority.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 02:50 PM
Yeah, @[SARP] Wes I think that's something community staff members need to remember from time to time. It can be very intimidating for a new member to speak up about something, especially when they see some fancy high rank next to your name and whatnot.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:50 PM
That is interesting. And as a player, there is a comfort in knowing exactly who is in charge and to go to with issues. If it was just Sam, Bob and Jim, you wouldn't have a clue who to approach necessarily
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 02:50 PM
I see botj sides of the argument. (edited)
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 02:51 PM
It's important to acknowledge whatever they're seeing instead of immediately dismissing it, even if you don't necessarily agree, at least try to understand why they might be having an issue. The excuse "that's the way we've always done it" or "we've been doing this for decades/already tried that before" isn't sufficient
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:51 PM
I do like when I have a command staff that is approachable.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:51 PM
We never use ranks OOC. And by using roles in Discord people easily see who is command.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:52 PM
So, to draw this highly successful panel (at least I think so ๐Ÿ™‚ ) are there any questions, hints or tips that anyone here has?
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 02:52 PM
"that's the way we've always done it" or "we've been doing this for decades/already tried that before" are two of my least liked excuses. To me, that means that you've already stopped listening and have already dismissed the idea.
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 02:52 PM
I have been a character of high rank for a long time... some people treat me differently because of it. Some have been afraid to come to me because of the fake title I wear, but there are those on the flipside that come to me because of the title...
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 02:52 PM
I think it's very important to help new players separate IC rank from the OOC person.
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:53 PM
^Yes
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 02:53 PM
Agreed
If I had any advice its this: be approachable, be kind, but most importantly be fair to everyone.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:53 PM
I dont use ranks in my names so much, I use position, like in 22 I am Kai1701E Trek DH, because I am the current leader of the Trek group. Rank doesn't matter beyond the sim/story you are writing for (edited)
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 02:54 PM
Agreed. That's why we usually don't go by ranks. We use them when we need to represent authority, but most of the time when we're just hanging out, there's no reason to use them. As long as we make it clear who new members can talk to, that's generally all they need to know.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:56 PM
Turns out we can keep our room ๐Ÿ˜„
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 02:56 PM
I just use Amethyst. I actually really dislike when CO's change my nickname on a discord server. I prefer to be the same everywhere I go.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:56 PM
So, by all means keep talking. I am loving this opportunity to chat and brainstorm with fellow GM's
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:56 PM
You get to keep the room?
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:56 PM
I'd be guilty of that @[PF] Amethyst but I would ask before I did it!
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:56 PM
Oh wait, nothing on the schedule
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 02:57 PM
On discord, OOC I don't use ranks or anything, we just use our names. Discord is mostly OOC. we chat and carry on.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 02:58 PM
I leave it up to my crew what they use. Although I would advice to at least put your PC's first name in there somewhere. Even just as a combo with your OOC nickname. Just so people can easily find who is who.
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 02:58 PM
I've changed nicknames of people in Discord before, but mostly only as an abuse of power against someone who I knew would think it was funny. If I didn't know the person well, I certainly wouldn't do that.
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 02:58 PM
Mine actually has been changed everywhere to [Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:58 PM
I've done the same @[PF] AlexM , all in fun.
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 02:58 PM
Or nx1701g
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 02:59 PM
So, my fellow GM's - Scenario time. I have just rebooted a sim and changed from Nova to Forum. What might be some of the limitations or successes I might face?
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 02:59 PM
Losing players who won't play forums
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 03:00 PM
We just did the opposite and that was the biggest issue
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[22]TheeFlamehead 09-Nov-19 03:01 PM
Easier time playing multiple characters, due to being able to create, and switch between, seperate accounts
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 03:01 PM
On forum or Nova @[22]TheeFlamehead ?
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 03:01 PM
I lost two good players because we moved and they felt we didn't give them adequate time to discuss their concerns.
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[22]TheeFlamehead 09-Nov-19 03:01 PM
For me, forum
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:02 PM
You moved to forum? You don't hear that very often. Usually the other way around.
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[Zodiac Fleet] NX-1701-G 09-Nov-19 03:02 PM
We went groups to nova
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[22]Blondie 09-Nov-19 03:02 PM
I play on both forum and Nova, they both have pros and cons
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[22]TheeFlamehead 09-Nov-19 03:03 PM
@[22]Blondie Could you share your experiences working with both?
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 03:03 PM
My only con really with forums if you go LOA and then have to catch up on posts...it can be a LOT depending on how active people have been.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 03:04 PM
Forums were where I started (I don;t count MSN groups) and I've thought about going back for a while. Rebooting seemed a great opportunity to do it
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 03:04 PM
I love Nova, but if there's one thing I hate is that it only shows you the finished product. There's no way to see from the outside how "truly active" a game is.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:04 PM
I've also started with forums, but I would never go back to it ever. Specially now with Discord.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:05 PM
As someone who hasn't used Nova before (at 118, we use email still through google groups although I tend to do my posting and reading through the google groups website directly), what do you mean by truly active and finished product @[22] greenfelt
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 03:05 PM
That is a good point @[22] greenfelt , I have large group posts going but last month my sim had 3 posts.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:05 PM
You can change that. I think I saw a mod for that. That makes the saved missions public.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 03:05 PM
I don't think it works with the newest version.
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[22]Blondie 09-Nov-19 03:05 PM
They're just different and appealing to different types of writers. I just like to roleplay. shrug I like that with Nova, you can write a post with others, but forum work well, too.
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 03:06 PM
Sagas of the West uses a system that makes it possible for me to at least try to keep up with the threads and replies. Every time someone starts a thread, and every time some one replies to a thread, the site sends a notification and link to the thread/reply to the Discord channel. I just have to click the links.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:06 PM
That might explain why whenever I've seen a Nova sim, I've wondered how they get by with such a low volume of sims per month (edited)
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 03:06 PM
@[SB118] Rahman Nova is web-based software (think Wordpress) where you log in and make your contribution to a post/chapter. When all authors agree that post/chapter is done, it's published for all to see.
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When it's being written/worked on, no one can see it but those that are writing it.
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[22]Blondie 09-Nov-19 03:06 PM
That's one of the things about Nova that I don't like
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 03:07 PM
For instance, on my sim, the Black Hawk, we're about ready to publish a 11,000 word post. It took eight writers, and perhaps 90 tags, to get to that point in a week.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:07 PM
Hmmm, then as someone who doesn't use Nova, I'd definitely recommend GMs who do use it consider showing the in-progress because yeah, that does give a different impression about how active your sims are
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 03:07 PM
There's not really a way to do that.
I don't think, anyway
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 03:08 PM
And that is an advantage of forums that have a JP section/workshop
You can see what is going in to posts
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:08 PM
Is there a log of player "activity" (log ins, etc)?
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 03:08 PM
yes
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 03:08 PM
But can it be made public?
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 03:08 PM
No.
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 03:08 PM
Nope
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 03:09 PM
That's what I thought.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:09 PM
I guess then this is why I've found groups who post news updates attractive
I've seen some Nova-based sims do a monthly update or so
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 03:09 PM
Monthly/quarterly , yeah
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:09 PM
and that helps also give a clue as to how active they are
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 03:09 PM
Each bio says when a character's most recent mission post was and you can see the most recent posts on the main page.
But yeah. I'm seeing the appeal of forums on Sagas in a way it hasn't appealed to me in the past.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:10 PM
And you can also get a feel of the activity by the news items. I publish my monthly report as a news item.
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And offcourse the discord. WE have a tag channel.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 03:11 PM
I can't say I ever saw the value in a monthly report on Nova. (just a personal opinion, don't shoot me). There are times I've seen these reports as basically "You players aren't posting enough! Get in there and &)$*#( write!"
Of course, I know not all are like that, but it can happen.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:12 PM
For those people who get 30 mails a day of saved mission posts. Seeing you get tagged on discord about a tag is very handy
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 03:12 PM
If it works for some, then that's definitely awesome. I would definitely say though to be aware of what the tone looks like to an outside player.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 03:12 PM
Yeah.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:13 PM
Yeah
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:13 PM
It's the report to the fleet that I publish on my site as well. IT's more an update of what we have done last month, and what our plans are for the coming month. As well as new players etc.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:13 PM
what's also helpful for an outside player is monthly or at least some form of regular plot summaries
and honestly for new players, too
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 03:13 PM
I have a few sims where we have discord rooms but not everyone is there. So there is an OOC ongoing post where we post updates and such too
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 03:15 PM
the politics sim that @Penta runs has an IC group and an OOC group where we post a 'world report' every few weeks, that sums up the goings on and future developments which is very useful
The OOC group doesn't get used for much else but it is handy that it is separate. It's also useful because not everyone is on discord
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:15 PM
that sounds like it'd be a lot of fun to read @[GEC] Kai1701E what year/setting is it
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 03:16 PM
It is a 2019 political sim on earth
I can PM you if you are interested
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 03:16 PM
I think the bottom line here is definitely that if you're wanting to catch and keep new players, you really got to make the onboarding and the accessibility as easy as possible.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 03:16 PM
I concur with the felted one
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:17 PM
Yeah, for someone not versed with Nova for example, even navigating it to understand how to "read" a ship's mission would be helpful I think for Nova-based fleets to include on their website
I know of course there's the Nova website itself to explain, but even a general overview might be useful
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 03:18 PM
It's something I've been thinking about myself too. I'm coming up on the end of a 2.5 year season arc that has been very difficult for new players to interface with. A good refresh of how I present information's gonna be crucial for me, I see that now.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:19 PM
yeah even things that might seem obvious to you but at first glance is confusing like for instance how the posts are in reverse chronological order
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 03:19 PM
I think Nova would be truly fantastic if it had a wiki/database function that was actually decent. Instead, lots of people have resorted to separate sites for adding crucial information like mission summaries, timelines stucc like that
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:19 PM
instead of the expected chapter by chapter for someone used to reading a novel or fanfic on archive of our own or something
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 03:19 PM
In some of the storylines that I've written for those long-running plot arcs can be difficult. It depends on how detailed your plot is. We had one in our group that lasted for 9 months and by the end of it people were so tired of it and glad to see it end.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:19 PM
If you need help with the Nova wiki, DM me. I'm having no issues with it.
Even did a panel about it for OF day.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 03:21 PM
I would have, but I've ditched Nova and have created a wordpress site to accompany my forums, so I just create all my pages there.
So, does anyone else have any other tips for making a sim successful?
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:22 PM
I think one thing we might not have addressed is also avoiding burnout for you or your command team
I've seen before when running a group starts to feel like a job for some and that's when the fun ends
Don't forget to continue to invest in your own characters or that of your veteran writers and their own character arcs
as much as you try to welcome others and mentor the newer players
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 03:23 PM
That will tie in beautifully with the panel @[22] greenfelt and I plan to run soon.
I hope you'll come back and present that again then, too!
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 03:23 PM
In 37 minutes!
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 03:23 PM
Exactly. And sometimes that burnout comes from writing for one primary character for too long. I've found that switching primary characters for a short time can be a refresher and an alternative option to a leave of absence
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:24 PM
haha, yeah I just checked the schedule and saw that... nice!
Yeah, @[SB118] Lael Roesk
and it's hard sometimes too because players can become really attached to their first character
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:24 PM
Or create (a bunch of) NPC's to get intersted in writing again.
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 03:25 PM
Personally what's kept me going is taking a break sometimes from my primary character even while keeping her my primary and writing for NPCs. It gives me a bit of variety and perspective on my primary character
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:25 PM
I recently saw for instance where a player wrote for a guest character that was great to really see them show their talents to the point where you almost want to suggest they consider switching because their first character just has so much baggage from often common mistakes or pitfalls (that they're talking about in the other room)
I mean, I know if I'd kept writing for my own first character, I wouldn't have been able to sustain it
too much melodrama ๐Ÿ˜›
I've found my later characters tend to be more whimsical or just... "fun"
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 03:27 PM
My first major CO character developed in such a way that I backed him into a corner almost. Short of rebooting him and retconning his history, the only kind thing to do was to kill him
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:27 PM
I've been writing my PC for almost 6 years now. Love it that she actually has a written history and not just a history I came up with when I created her.
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 03:27 PM
I'm honestly surprised that I've been able to write for my current primary character as long as I have. She has so much drama and so many issues. I swear if she's a psychological mine filled with all the psychological issues she has
But then those are the kind of characters do you always have something new to drive them toward becoming a better person. There's always ways to dig them out of situations that make them really reflect on themselves and want to change
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:30 PM
Oh yes definitely. I started Kate as a cadet who climbed up to XO. Then used her when I started my first sim, where she was a ship Captain. And now she's a Starbase Captain. I still have so many things I want to write with her. Good and bad.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 03:31 PM
Anyone ever brought a character back from the dead? I did and it was a fantastic story
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 03:31 PM
I'm currently looking at moving forward as far as rank for my character and so I'm looking at a plot that would really drive her toward where she needs to be in order to be the best leader for her crew. It's causing her to question who she is and her values.
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 03:31 PM
Kinda? My very first character I brought back, but not from the dead, and made her my now CO
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:32 PM
You mean litterly? Or as in a character you stopped writing a long time ago.
Not that I've had either of those options.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:33 PM
Hmmm, you know I actually haven't, although I did sort of influence and then take part in helping another player to bring back theirs since I loved their character too much ๐Ÿ˜‚
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 03:33 PM
I killed the character off and then revived him
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 03:33 PM
I've had my character die a few times. She was able to be brought back within minutes each time though
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 03:33 PM
It was an epic plot of treachery
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 03:33 PM
Nope, not killed ๐Ÿคท
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:33 PM
My character almost died. Does that count?
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 03:33 PM
But I hadn't written her in YEARS and she was my first ever Trek character in 2006
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 03:33 PM
I like the "Once dead, stays dead" philosophy.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 03:34 PM
So, @[SB118] Lael Roesk you say you are looking at a plot to help your character advance in rank. Is that something that we can help with?
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:34 PM
I enjoy finding ways to interweave into other people's characters' backstories and vice versa. Going back to trust, I like having trusted writers for instance sim for my character's family members as it's more fun for me to be surprised after I give them a basic outline of what I see for these NPCs that they then bring to life
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:34 PM
The CO on a sim where I was the XO died and came back. But doing a crazy story like that made sense on that sim. The whole sim was crazy. (in a good way)
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 03:35 PM
Mostly right now I'm planning to have her re-examine the things that are important to her. I have a pretty good idea of where I'm going with it
But I'm definitely open to any opinions or stories from others on how they've managed that with their characters. It's always good inspiration
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:35 PM
I don't know if it's really that popular for others as I haven't really seen it too much in 118 at least, but I'm glad another writer has allowed me to "retcon" or at least suddenly introduce a cousin she never knew she had... it's been fun to explore some new family drama she didn't know she was a part of
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:35 PM
I'm doing that as well. My XO is going to write a character that I "needed" for a story with my chracters.
🙂 1
He used some thing I provided and came up with the rest himself. I'm really excited to start that.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:36 PM
I think you'll have a lot of fun with it @[16th Fleet] Kate as long as you're willing to let them take it in some ways that you might not expect. It's kind of like once you've given them the basics, you accept that it might not end up exactly as you had in mind.
But as I told another player once, it's a lot more fun than just playing with yourself
which he then proceeded to laugh really hard...
but anyway... ๐Ÿ˜›
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:37 PM
LOL
We discussed the story we are going to write as well. Not the finer details, but the result. Where we want to end.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 03:38 PM
Yeah, sounds like good ol' collaborative writing then ๐Ÿ™‚
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 03:38 PM
That sounds actually like a very good idea as far as creating a non-player character. It makes the journey interesting but keeps the destination as a Target
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:39 PM
I run a sim with lots of NPC's. I think we're at 16 PC and about 110 NPC's. Everyone often asks "I need this and this" for a story.
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 03:39 PM
I think I have a grand total of anywhere from 2o to 30 non-player characters in my repertoire that I activate at various times
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:39 PM
USually there is someone with a NPC that matched what is needed. And when not there is always someone intrequed to create a NPC for it.
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aio 09-Nov-19 03:39 PM
I love NPC's.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:40 PM
I only have 25 of them myself.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 03:40 PM
I love NPC's too
I think they are crucial to stories
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:40 PM
On my sim, not counting other sims I write on.
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aio 09-Nov-19 03:40 PM
I have NPC's in every department, multiple in some. It allows you to interact with characters who the Captain, or Chief dept officer wouldn't necessarily interact with.
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 03:40 PM
I found there a great support for driving my character forward. I love bringing other player characters into my stories though. It creates some very interesting relationships and some very interesting results
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 03:40 PM
I love NPCs.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:40 PM
I have that as well @aio.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 03:41 PM
I tried a system once where players signed up and took ownership of an NPC and gave up that ownership when they left for someone else to use. It was designed to keep continuity going story wise
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[TDL] Quinton1721 09-Nov-19 03:41 PM
Side, Recurring, Minor characters > Main characters
Just so much more interesting than mains.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:41 PM
But aside of that I run a station. It doesn't make sense to me to only have a small number of characters on a station.
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aio 09-Nov-19 03:42 PM
Another good reason for NPC's is when you don't have a character in a position.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:42 PM
All of our NPC's are assigned to someone. And if they leave they usually take the NPC with them.
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aio 09-Nov-19 03:42 PM
You can't just keep saying 'they arrive on Tuesday'
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:42 PM
That only makes sense for the first mission
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 03:42 PM
In our group we generally have personal non-player characters who belong to a specific writer and general non-player characters who are basically just background and might come up once in a blue moon or to support a current plot. We also have mission-specific non-player characters who are only meant to stick around for a short time.
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aio 09-Nov-19 03:43 PM
Some positions are hard to get players for, so an NPC can be a quick easy way to fix it.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:43 PM
And that also makes a department active, which makes it more intersting for a player to write.
You'll quicker find a new writer for a active department then an inactive
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aio 09-Nov-19 03:44 PM
Yeh. Because then instead of only writing Engineering when the CO, or other officer, appears or something breaks, having a few Engineering NPCs can be good for good old fashioned character development.
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Reminder BOT 09-Nov-19 03:45 PM
15-minute warning
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 03:46 PM
Thanks everyone for the fun conversation. I would like to ask if possible that we let this convo die down before our next session.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 03:46 PM
WE either give them a temporary double role. Like acting chief next to their normal role. Or pretend a chracter has been there for a while and either kill him/her off let let them leave.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 03:48 PM
Trek does provide a lot of leeway in this. How many times, especially in TOS, was someone just introduced, "Here's our helmsman. Here's our astrophysicist." Etc.
Just happened to be whoever was on duty at that moment.
The real DH could have worked the graveyard shift and was being allowed to sleep in. ๐Ÿ™‚
And.... I just now scrolled back and read some.
Saw I was a bit out of context... >.>
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 03:58 PM
((In 2 minutes the next panel begins please move to #ffxi-overflow-two ๐Ÿ™‚ ))
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[SARP] Wes 09-Nov-19 03:59 PM
I have over 120 NPCs and counting...I started assigning them to various places throughout my universe that way each place the players visit has a familiar face that's a recurring character.
Basically places tend to be better when they also have people, I feel.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:00 PM
Welcome everyone to our next session, Keeping Players Motivated.
Some of these items were touched on in our previous panel, but we'll be repeating some of them since our audience has changed a bit.
And we might be able to provide some extra perspective on some of those.
I can tell what youโ€™re all thinking, because weโ€™ve all been there. No matter the genre, no matter the game, the inevitable always happens. People just stop writing. Players โ€œghostโ€ the game, โ€œghostโ€ the others, and become difficult to get a hold of.
Is this fixable?
You bet!
Is there a one-fix-fixes-all solution?
If only.
โ€œBut I want my players to keep writing! I thought this was supposed to help me fix that.โ€
Thatโ€™s totally fair, and I hope over the next hour we can find and share some solutions that will be helpful to you. After all, that is the intention of this panel, to help you keep your players motivated and involved.
But before we can talk about solutions, we need to talk about some of the causes or problems that cause players to lose motivation.
When you have been able to track down those who've ghosted you... what were some of the problems that they've shared that zapped their motivation?
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 04:03 PM
They didn't feel involved in whatever plot was going on.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 04:03 PM
Couldn't tell. I'm still waiting for a reply...
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:03 PM
Real life. Something happened that just drained their enthusiasm for things.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:03 PM
They were frightened by the CO's personality
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Dennis 09-Nov-19 04:04 PM
Waitng for the CO to lead and doesnt
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:04 PM
What about the other players? Was the player "put off" by the rest of the crowd because of how tight-knit or clique-ish they were?
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 04:04 PM
Seen that happen as well.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:04 PM
I've been put off by that personally
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 04:04 PM
I have as well
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:05 PM
I've seen that
And been put off by it myself
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 04:05 PM
It can be difficult to break into an existing group, and boring until you do.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:05 PM
Kris brought up not feeling involved in the plot. What about them having trouble just trying to engage in the plot and not sure how to do it?
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 04:05 PM
raises hand
on both sides. GM and Player
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:05 PM
Ugh. That can be such a buzz kill.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:05 PM
Yeah, we went through that pretty recently too, didn't we @Chistery?
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 04:05 PM
Yeah, have that too.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:05 PM
(( don't mean to single you out ))
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 04:06 PM
S'ok
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:06 PM
(( @[22] greenfelt is scary as a CO blinks rapidly ))
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:06 PM
I think it's completely safe to say that there are a lot of reasons why players lose motivation. They can feel left out, not welcome, not sure how to jump in, etc.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:07 PM
Sometimes larger simms can be like that... Especially when they've had the same members for a long period of time it's harder for new players to jump in and feel welcome
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:08 PM
Today, we're going to talk about two different approaches to motivating players. Things that you can do as a GM, and things you can do as a player.
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 04:08 PM
No, he's not intimidating. but the BH crew is very tight knit and the recent story arc was very involved and at times new players found it difficult to get into it, my self included. That's not a slam on GF (though he is annoyingly good at being a GM ๐Ÿ™‚ ) (edited)
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:08 PM
That's completely fair, Chistery.
No one is immune to this, and no one's perfect either.
Let's start with the GM approach.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:09 PM
I've had potential players turn away from VFY because of how large the simm is and they were worried they wouldn't fit in
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 04:09 PM
takes out pad and pencil... or maybe PaDD and stylus
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:09 PM
Some of these were mentioned in an earlier session, and I think it's important to repeat them since not all of us could be here earlier.
As a GM, the moment you accept that application, you've got to do your part to help that player feel welcome.
You can't expect players to jump right in.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:10 PM
You have a responsibility to the player
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:10 PM
Right.
You've got to be welcoming to the player, give them some pointers, and help them slide right in.
In a different room, we were talking about NPCs.
One thing I've found that works is that you can't always find a reason why the Captain will bump into a Corpsman.
But having an NPC for the Corpsman (new player) to interact with for a post or two helps them get comfortable with the sim, the plot, and even the players.
What are some ways that you as a GM have helped players get motivated?
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:13 PM
I've involved them in the running/development of plots. Even asking them to create/come up with the sequel to a mission.
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 04:13 PM
Same
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:13 PM
Then it is their idea they are invested in
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:13 PM
Ownership is very much a key to collaboration.
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:13 PM
As a DnD DM, I always help players to determine what they want from a campaign
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[22]Blondie 09-Nov-19 04:13 PM
See what they want to do with their characters
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 04:14 PM
That is something that's been a challenge for me. As the CO of a starbase sim, I want to encourage players to pursue characters that they might not be able to play on a starship. But often that means that they will have very little interaction with my CO character. Because of that, I've created a number of secondary characters, almost one in every department, to provide another avenue for interaction.
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:14 PM
Character-wise and story-wise
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 04:14 PM
Make sure the character is comfortable talking to the CO both in and out of character
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:15 PM
I prefer small-minded games. More like player-on-player than Faction vs. Faction
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 04:15 PM
Uh, funnily enough, I have two ice breakers that I use, both as a player and as a GM. The Collision My character is moving down the corridor, walking at a good clip, and collides with the other player's character. The Screaming Shower My character is taking a sonic shower when suddenly the shower malfunctions and starts 'screaming'. This one usually works if I need to interact with Engineering or Ops.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:15 PM
lol
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:15 PM
I like the Zelda approach
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:15 PM
I've had my character run into another in a corridor and spill coffee on him/herself. It's a classic.
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:15 PM
Giving them all they need and send them on their way
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:16 PM
I had a teenager do it to my Tellarite CO before, which was hilarious since the Captain was shorter than the teen
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:16 PM
lol
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 04:16 PM
"This little piggy went to market..."
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:17 PM
I think it's also important that the GM spell out the expectations of the player upon joining. Just like being hired for a job in the real world, when you decide to join a game, both the GM and the player have responsibilities to each other and the game.
💯 2
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:17 PM
True
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:17 PM
One of those expectations should always be communication.
The GM should communicate and interact with the player both IC and OOC.
And vice versa.
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:17 PM
You have to set out the rules (edited)
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:18 PM
Otherwise, there's no real chance for that relationship to develop properly and you set yourself up to be ghosted in the future.
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:18 PM
OOC talking is as important as IC
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:18 PM
More so I would argue.
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Beautiful Night 09-Nov-19 04:18 PM
Whilst onboarding is its own challenge, I worry about burnout or existing players
Of existing players
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:19 PM
Edit, milady
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:19 PM
That is definitely a fair point.
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Beautiful Night 09-Nov-19 04:19 PM
who make all the right noises when I ask for input at plot generation, but then just don't engage
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 04:19 PM
I've found that turning to players and asking for their characters suggestions IC can be big on the investment front
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:19 PM
Existing players are not immune to burnout, to being shunned, or even feel like they're being ignored at the expense of the new player.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:19 PM
Oh, for sure
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:20 PM
Did you ask Picard if you were allowed to say that?
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:20 PM
That's where shoreleave and stuff comes into play while it's difficult for players on space station simm to do that sort of thing our characters can visit Risa or another paradise planet.
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[SARP] Wes 09-Nov-19 04:20 PM
I think the best things you can do is make posts which are interesting and actively involve other people's characters not just your own (ask them questions, etc). Part of being interesting is to do the unexpected or surprise people. We RP because writing alone can be boring and adding multiple other people to a story gives it a Ouija board like effect where none of us know where things may go 100%, and there's sliding scale of predictability vs silly randomness and having things be too predictable can be harmful too. Motivation can simply be "where will we end up next??"
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kumi 09-Nov-19 04:20 PM
I agree. There should be a balance between helping a new player and maintaining your current userbase
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:21 PM
However, at low userbases, you must balance between helping and revising your playstyle
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:21 PM
I recently had a situation on my sim where a player kept feeling sidelined because the players they tried to interact with kept disappearing, which led to us having to shift things around and abort some plotlines.
It can be demoralizing.
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 04:21 PM
It can be, most definitely
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 04:22 PM
Some things that just naturally happen in some threads can be extremely demoralizing
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:22 PM
Or, the player keeps insisting that they are busy and it slows down the post
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[SARP] Wes 09-Nov-19 04:22 PM
Adding surprise and randomness is why RPGs use dice. If you don't use dice in your RP/simming do something else to add the unexpected from time to time.
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 04:22 PM
Sometimes a character just isn't relevant to what's happening, and when it's you, and it seems like you're writing posts that aren't relevant and aren't getting 'noticed' (read, mention/replied to), it can be extraordinarily disheartening.
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:22 PM
There are three things you can do at low userbase: Check your exposure Refine the rules and playstyle Get another site to look at it
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[SARP] Wes 09-Nov-19 04:23 PM
It's good to keep a common expectation of how fast the pace/tempo of the posting should be. Don't be afraid to move the plot along when a player doesn't make that pace because if everyone waits for everyone, then it only takes one person ghosting to kill things for everyone. (edited)
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:23 PM
I don't agree that changing rules and playstyle are always necessary and constant change for a site can kill the enthusiasm of your other players
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:23 PM
This is true, @Wallflower
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 04:23 PM
I've had it happen a good bit to me, and it's one of the worse feelings about RP, personally, just because I'm not exactly a confident person in any regard
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:23 PM
I mean they can be useful, but I wouldn't have them as my go to
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 04:24 PM
It's much easier to find ways to incorporate players into the plot in unique ways
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:24 PM
Every player has their own idosyncraices...
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 04:24 PM
I generally post 2-3 times a day
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:24 PM
My spelling is awful today.
Some people can tag/post like crazy every day.
Others can barely do that once or twice a week.
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 04:24 PM
Even if there has to be a break in posting to let everyone cool down maybe from a heavy mission, throw the shore leave in there, an IC break and it gives an OOC break too. No posting requirements if you have them during the shore leave.
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:24 PM
True. You never should give up the core of your RP
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 04:24 PM
Well I have a baker's dozen of characters. (edited)
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 04:25 PM
Personally my main goal as a leader and first officer is to find a way to incorporate every writer into the plot in a unique way
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:25 PM
Yes we ran into that on the Onnar @[22] Kris after one of our missions was very heavy
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:25 PM
You mix enough of both of those player types together, and it's easy to see why the slower-paced players can feel left out.
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 04:25 PM
I know it's absolutely no ones responsibility to make low-confidence players like me feel more important, but at least making sure that you're including everybody to at least a minimum helps
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:25 PM
Yup. @enterDanement. I have one and I post 2x per week
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 04:25 PM
@Wallflower -- I would kind of disagree with that.
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 04:25 PM
oh, sorry (edited)
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 04:26 PM
As CO, I consider it my responsibility to do whatever I can to make sure that ALL my players feel important
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 04:26 PM
What @[PF] Amethyst said.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:26 PM
^^^ that
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:26 PM
All players are important
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:26 PM
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 04:26 PM
Some roles are much harder to play than others, some are not always going to be as involved as others.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:26 PM
^^^ also that
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 04:26 PM
A position like counselor or flight control can be awful because you don't get a lot of the core missions
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 04:27 PM
I found for example with our group that counseling and medical being combined is sometimes a good solution to a player who feels like they're not adequately involved in a counseling role because not all missions will require counselor
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:27 PM
Even a low confidence player has to be included in some way and perhaps more so... As a leader and this is a bit off topic, but as a leader in the military everyone responds differently and I've found that people who don't have confidence in themselves need special amounts of motivation.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 04:27 PM
But I think that someone applying as a diplomat to a tactival vessel should know they won't be the main active character in every story.
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 04:27 PM
It's just a fact of finding a way to include them that works
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:27 PM
A bit of hand holding can go a long way with a player who doesn't have confidence in themselves it helps keep them motivated and engaged and makes them feel wanted
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 04:28 PM
exactly!
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:28 PM
There has to be an element of ownership in those situations too though. You have to be prepared to go out on a limb and find a way to get involved. I've seen plenty who wont try.
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Leam-Mark 09-Nov-19 04:28 PM
Sorry, only just arrived. Missed a lot of stuff, so I'm just reading to where I can say something but I would agree (if I'm reading it right) that as a CO (and one myself), that it is my responsibility as the leader of the sim to ensure everyone is as involved as possible, which is why what I do is write openings to the mission and the basic start to the problem and open it up to my players to get involved and offer their ideas, that way they feel included in the mission and feel included that they want to post as they played a part in writing the mission and they take more ownership, so if they don't post, it falls back to them to take the ownership. However, also look at the flip side, in how sims feel when they aren't treated right, when they aren't given the support to grow (just a thought)
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:29 PM
It depends on why they haven't too @[GEC] Kai1701E ... Sometimes people just need that small suggestion here or there and are too afraid to ask for it
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:29 PM
@[SB118] Lael Roesk this is actually the second time I stuck with medical team
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:29 PM
true @[PF] Confusedfire
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:29 PM
Strange how I never stay with Dane...?
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:29 PM
VFY has a player who is 15 she is our youngest member and we're always helping her out because she's still new to all of it
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 04:29 PM
Hand holding can be all well and good but if a player doesn't ever Sprout the confidence to spread their wings themselves and really dig into a plot, in the end all it is is expended effort for very little gain. You have to find the right balance
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:30 PM
Good points, @Leam-Mark. It's definitely the GM's responsiblity to do what they can, but they can't do everything.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:30 PM
Granted she's had her share of brilliant ideas as well
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 04:30 PM
You can't help people who don't want to help themselves. Sometimes you can give a player all the suggestions in the world to get involved and include them and they just don't step up. But most of the time people just need a little nudge in the right direction.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:30 PM
Right, @[SB118] Lael Roesk
Let's flip the script for a moment, everyone.
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 04:30 PM
Quality over quantity.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:30 PM
We've been talking about what you can do as a GM.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:30 PM
And, that's where you have to draw the line I think Amethyst
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:30 PM
But what about a player?
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 04:30 PM
I just blatantly lack any sense of confidence in 99% of social situations. I've joined plots and had next to no RP in it for months at a time because I couldn't work enough confidence to ask anybody to RP. Absolutely my fault, of course. Sometimes it's just difficult to get over the false idea that I'd be bothering people
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 04:31 PM
I find that it's important to go back over a character's bio to make sure I'm utilizing that character correctly. As a player, I tend to put interesting details in my character bios, things that people sometimes miss and then misunderstand my character's capabilities. Niche characters are hard to use and sometimes as a GM I have to personally explain to the crew what the new niche's character's roles and responsibilities are and how that kind of character can expect to be treated by their peers and subordinates and even their superiors.
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 04:31 PM
A good bit of player confidence is about timing. If they come in and right away or in a mission where they can expand their character and it really fits their ideas for their characters development then they can become very invested from the get-go
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 04:31 PM
If you see someone who seems left out, ask them if they want to write with you. Even if it is something silly or fun.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:31 PM
That's where the hand holding comes into play Wallflower... I think everyone has had a moment where they've felt a lack of confidence or like they were being a bother to someone else
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 04:31 PM
That wasn't a slam @[22] greenfelt
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 04:31 PM
Also providing others with help if they need it is good to have if a scene needs to be expanded.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:32 PM
I didn't see it as such, @Chistery. It's good to make sure that everyone shares an understanding.
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Leam-Mark 09-Nov-19 04:32 PM
I think when that happens @[PF] Amethyst that it would be, to me, a lost cause. I've had a few players like that in my 11+ years of being a CO, where you try and try and try and they just don't get it, or they just don't want to step up to the standard you want them to be at or want them to set. Some people just aren't suited to certain sims. I'm lucky in that a few players who have been like that on my sims have found sims that they are much suited to and have been able to thrive, which is great for them
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:32 PM
I think character creation is a big point here. Too many people go for the option of warping in a new character. I've found that the best way to get involved is to create a character that is maybe a junior officer aboard the ship already and they can be written in in such a way as if they have always been there.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 04:33 PM
Does it mean you are rude and not welcoming if you make it very clear that you're sim is looking for people who don't need the handholding? That you expect writers to take initiative to things on their own?
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 04:34 PM
I like that idea @[GEC] Kai1701E
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:34 PM
I don't think that's rude because you're establishing the expectations right there in the beginning.
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Beautiful Night 09-Nov-19 04:34 PM
@[16th Fleet] Kate yes. but its also vital. I do it with Deep Space Five. I make sure they know exactly what they're getting into
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:34 PM
But I think it's also unrealistic because I have yet to meet a player that doesn't need some sort of nudge, help, handholding, etc.
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Beautiful Night 09-Nov-19 04:34 PM
and that they're expected to do some work to get and stay involved
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 04:35 PM
This why I allow myself to write more for my primary character because it pushes me to actually think about the situation. Writing more for NPCs isn't a good thing. On 118, the minimum for full time is 12 sims a month. I don't count those sims as full time if thats just NPCs.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:35 PM
I don't think it's rude... Some simms simply don't work well for a new person to get into
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Beautiful Night 09-Nov-19 04:35 PM
but also, not to struggle in silence, as my job is to help people write
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:35 PM
Clear expectations from a players perspective is crucial. Don't let me stumble into something that I should have known from the start.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 04:35 PM
I'm talking about those people where you need to tell them everything they need to do. Have your character do this, do that. Not about getting someone started and finding their way around the sim.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:35 PM
I think the biggest catch 22 here is that 1) setting the ground rules right away is important and 2) communication is key
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 04:36 PM
As a GM, I know one type of mission post that I've grown really tired of over the years is the "reporting for duty" post. I know for new players that's a big moment because it's how they get introduced to the sim. But for the GM, they can be a bit cliche. That said, I'm all for doing an intro post with a character. I just like to make it something a little more unique to that character. Why just have them come into the ready room to report in for the first time? Maybe they run into their CO while lost on the ship? Maybe they're meeting their coworkers for the first time? I want to help the player get integrated into the sim, but finding a way to do that organically can be a challenge at times.
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Leam-Mark 09-Nov-19 04:36 PM
I'm with @[22] greenfelt on this one, it's not rude. It shows that you have a standard for the sim and that from the beginning, everyone should be required to be at or close to that standard. There are plenty of sims out there that will hand hold players and what-not, but some CO's prefer to have writers who can get straight into it and its like they have been there for years. For me, I'm happy to welcome any players who might or might not have experience, and guide them, but not to the point where I am essentially writing their posts for them. It's what my Discord server is for, to ask those questions, to have fun and enjoy the sim.
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[PF] Confusedfire 09-Nov-19 04:36 PM
Players who don't say "Hey I'm struggling" are just as bad as CO's who either ignore the player who might be struggling or don't address it by asking the question "Are you alright?"
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:36 PM
Onboarding is a critical part of the "motivational" process. Establish your expectations, help them understand what they need to know about the story so far and the community.
But don't expect them to immediately be an expert.
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Leam-Mark 09-Nov-19 04:36 PM
What I also have with my sim is a FAQ document, and a new players welcome pack that all new players get when they are accepted to the sim and are freely available on my website
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:37 PM
I like that approach, @[PF] AlexM
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:37 PM
I also insist now that all new characters report to the XO, as realistically on a starship, the XO is in charge of personnel. Importantly, it gets players writing with another member of the command team ASAP and starts that relationship building
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 04:37 PM
I have a newbie guide. Mosty because I kept mentioning stuff to new players. Which they needed to know.
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:37 PM
@Wallflower I get that feeling often too. I'm autistic as well
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Leam-Mark 09-Nov-19 04:38 PM
@[GEC] Kai1701E in addition to that, I get the new players to write out a solo post first, that way they get right into the storyline and then meet the XO (or CO)
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:38 PM
Gina... I just noticed you spelled Rosek wrong
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 04:38 PM
I suggust using the sample post as their intro post. As a way of establishing their chracter.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:39 PM
I use my sample posts now as a way of writing that first important post, so I can say to the GM "This is how I plan to come aboard"
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[SB118] Lael Roesk 09-Nov-19 04:39 PM
I've found that how a person writes their reporting for duty post matters more. How they lead up to it. It's good space to establish who their character is
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Beautiful Night 09-Nov-19 04:39 PM
I'd actually argue against that.
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:39 PM
@[SB118] Lael Roesk you spelled Roesk instead of Rosek
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 04:39 PM
I like the idea of using the sample post that way, depending on who it is. With some people I don't require the post.
(On topic guys, spelling isn't a big deal)
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 04:40 PM
I'm CO of a starbase, so there are really only a few characters that report directly to the XO or CO. Seven or eight people out of a total population of a few hundred thousand make it unrealistic to have everyone report in directly to the top.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 04:40 PM
No, me neither. I also have the option in the sample post to send a link or two of solo posts they have done.
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 04:40 PM
Nitpicking and Other Ways to Annoy People is in Room Three ๐Ÿ˜›
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[SARP] Wes 09-Nov-19 04:40 PM
Terrible idea: start the report for duty post on the toilet. End with the unwashed handshake.
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Beautiful Night 09-Nov-19 04:40 PM
in my experience, intro posts as sample posts can be a bit bland. I'd rather see a theoretical situation where the characters needs to act and think fast. (they don't have to actually do it, that can be more interesting in fact, but its the situation that counts)
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:40 PM
Ew.
The toliet thing was ew.
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 04:41 PM
Agree
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 04:41 PM
I've been doing that too, @[GEC] Kai1701E. Not only does it kill two birds with one stone by getting that first post out of the way immediately, it helps tell me what kind of character they are going to be in context.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:41 PM
Let's try to stay on the motivational topic, not sample posts themselves.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 04:41 PM
I only have the chiefs report to the CO. Rest we'll see from person to person.
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[SARP] Wes 09-Nov-19 04:41 PM
You could immediately make an unlikeable character unlikeable.
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Leam-Mark 09-Nov-19 04:42 PM
I use the sample post as either "write a post in a scenario" just so I can see their posting and see if they follow our posting style/standard.... or they can write up their arrival solo post, or they can provide a solo post they have written on another sim. Really, I use it to see if they have looked at our posting style/standard
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:42 PM
But, tying into the current thread of thought, as a GM, you do need to provide ample challenges to players.
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Beautiful Night 09-Nov-19 04:42 PM
One question. DO characters have a life cycle?
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:42 PM
I used to have a list of 50 post ideas when stuck for ideas. I can't remember where it went, but it was great for directing people to when they lacked that little 'umph'
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 04:42 PM
When I'm comfortable, I can write practically endlessly with great detail and I'd like to think I'm decent but that's not really my place to describe my own ability. Comfortably in one 1 on 1 thread I have, I can put 5-6+ paragraphs in because of how well I socially mesh with the guy I'm writing with. At the same time in larger threads, I post smaller, and less ambitiously, because I often find myself terrified of accidentally pulling too much influence over something. I often set myself up for failure in that sense, because it makes my posts less noticeable when there's numerous people. Often I read too much into small things people say, and so on and so on. It seems that the only part of RP I'm good at is the actual writing aspect.
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 04:42 PM
In what way @Beautiful Night
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:42 PM
Sometimes, a writer just needs a good challenge to get properly motivated and involved with the game.
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Beautiful Night 09-Nov-19 04:42 PM
ie. once they've achieved whatever thir goals are, do the players loose interest as they don't know where to take a character with a 'finished'story?
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:42 PM
@[GEC] Kai1701E, I've got that list copied. ๐Ÿ™‚
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[SARP] Wes 09-Nov-19 04:42 PM
I have seen characters get promoted into being unplayable
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 04:42 PM
I believe so, BN, yes
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 04:43 PM
That's one adventage of having many stories ahppend at one time, there's almost always something for someone to join.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:43 PM
Maybe we could share it, @[22] greenfelt
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:43 PM
I've seen that happen, @Beautiful Night
I'm trying to type and get the list... lol
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Nov-19 04:43 PM
I didn;t mean now LOL
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 04:44 PM
My CO character completed her goal years ago. I just added new goals to her. (personal once, which she as a workaholic will probably never complete)
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Leam-Mark 09-Nov-19 04:44 PM
I think a lot of people use that @[22] greenfelt
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:44 PM
Back to BN's characters having a life cycle question... I think the answer is "yes" and "no"
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[SARP] Wes 09-Nov-19 04:44 PM
Man, I just thought about it and I've been making almost all of my characters decent, likable people. I don't really have any scumbag NPCs. (edited)
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[PF] AlexM 09-Nov-19 04:44 PM
Something that I'd like to dust off again is a list of Achievements for the sim. Basically the idea is that players can earn a badge for their bio by completing certain tasks, like writing a post a day for so many consecutive days, or by writing about a particular topic. It was a popular idea for a short while on my sim, but then we got away from it. I'm not sure the newer members of the sim even know that it was a thing.
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 04:44 PM
I've been stuck a few times since becoming a lieutenant commander, but it doesn't mean he's not playable anymore. There's plenty of ways to expand more without having to solve everything and seeing others be as enthusiastic as I am. I love watching others rise through the ranks.
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:44 PM
Remember what Kirk said to Picard
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:45 PM
Yes, characters have a life cycle because when you first join a game, you never really know how long it's going to last, so you don't map out too many goals.
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 04:45 PM
@[22] greenfelt can we 'borrow' that list?
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Reminder BOT 09-Nov-19 04:45 PM
15-minute warning
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[SARP] Wes 09-Nov-19 04:45 PM
Star Trek VI was basically about Kirk and his crew being past their lifecycle. (edited)
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:45 PM
And then no, because when a character's goals are achieved, a player has to come up with a new set.
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[SARP] Wes 09-Nov-19 04:45 PM
And it was a great movie.
A perfect sendoff to the TOS crew.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:46 PM
For instance, I have a player whose primary character has become an alcoholic in order to deal with some massive trauma. It's not intended to be permament, and it's opened doors for that character to interact with others in order for her faith in herself to be restored.
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:46 PM
"Don't let them promote you. At the bridge of your ship, that's where you can make the difference
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 04:46 PM
I'd like to use that list as well, @[22] greenfelt
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[SARP] Wes 09-Nov-19 04:46 PM
You could always give a character their last hurrah mission before they ride into the sunset or make the noble sacrifice.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:46 PM
You are all welcome to grab that list and repurpose it, as well as anything else on my wiki.
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 04:47 PM
If your character is unplayable, have them be stranded in another time period. That'll set up some goals to achieve. ๐Ÿ˜ˆ
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 04:47 PM
The list is extensive, but I remember feeling even more overwhelmed when that was sent to me the first time I was on the Black Hawk. Might want to look at separating the list into sections of similar topics. Just a thought. That just looks like a wall of text. My brain literally isn't wired to separate those into individual statements easily. Some of the ideas a re good, others require circumstances which are probably not going to be present.
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[SARP] Wes 09-Nov-19 04:47 PM
So....isekai
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:47 PM
No Character can be unplayable
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:47 PM
That's a good point, Chistery
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:47 PM
You just have to give them a new goal
Present some obstacles
That's what I should have said in my panel
"What I've learned from playing all these settings, is that all a story needs, is a setting, a goal, and some obstacles."
Wow. I sound smart now!
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 04:49 PM
Thatโ€™s a great list @[22] greenfelt Thanks!
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Chistery 09-Nov-19 04:49 PM
You could even separate the ideas into those you can easily solo, those that would be best as JPs, etc. These would be suggestions, not requirements.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:49 PM
So we've got about 12 minutes left. Does anyone else have any motivational tips? Anything that's worked for them?
What about times when you personally haven't been motivated to participate on a game. How did you overcome that?
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 04:50 PM
I think OOC chatter about the weather (or someo other nonsence topic) is also very helpfull. Just chat with people about things other then Star Trek.
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 04:50 PM
Set your character up for failure. Don't be too hard on yourself and others if people don't agree. Take a step back and think to yourself how would others perceive what I'm about to write.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 04:50 PM
Yeah sometimes good to step back a little
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:51 PM
We share memes, videos, and pictures all the time in our Discord.
It does help heal tensions.
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 04:51 PM
As someone else said previously, the number of times something OOC has ended up being followed through with "That has to go IC"
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[SARP] Wes 09-Nov-19 04:51 PM
Let players know when they're doing stuff right.
Positive reinforcement.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 04:51 PM
Yes, award them!
💯 3
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 04:51 PM
awards are good
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 04:51 PM
Let players know what they're doing wrong as well, but encourage them to keep up their enthusiasm.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 04:52 PM
Do writing games around a certain theme. And do a participation award.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 04:52 PM
Honestly though whenever I have been personally unmotivated itโ€™s usually been related to some unnecessary drama that unfortunately sometimes happens. Thankfully things have been somewhat โ€œboringโ€ in that regard for the last few years but yeah... being able to keep things in perspective is something everyone should strive for.
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Dennis 09-Nov-19 04:52 PM
Other than rank, how does a GM award a player?
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:52 PM
Oooh. Invent some super evil guy to bring the whole community together!
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[SARP] Wes 09-Nov-19 04:52 PM
"Here's how you can really make your posts pop even more..."
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 04:52 PM
We're doing one for thanksgiving now. If they can manage to get thanksgiving in a post somehow they get a award.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 04:52 PM
Special recognition and awards (OOC)
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Leam-Mark 09-Nov-19 04:52 PM
Awards are good. I use fleet awards but I also have a bunch of ship-only awards that I use to reward my players for things like time served, just because (with a captain's merit award) and also I do a player and post of the month award
😋 1
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enterDanement 09-Nov-19 04:52 PM
We have OOC awards and IC ribbons we give to players.
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 04:52 PM
Some sims have player of the month/quarter.
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Beautiful Night 09-Nov-19 04:52 PM
I love giving out shinies
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:53 PM
That system is great, Dane
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Nov-19 04:53 PM
Just making a point to acknowledge that playerโ€™s accomplishments and contributions to the group in front of others
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Beautiful Night 09-Nov-19 04:53 PM
possibly becuase I adore getting them
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:53 PM
I like to reward players by letting them "run point" on certain plot lines, or even inviting to play a villian NPC.
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 04:53 PM
As a player more often than not when I feel like I'm not contributing and not having fun, and thus don't feel like playing, I just quietly say I'm out of the game and move on
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Leam-Mark 09-Nov-19 04:53 PM
http://uss-excalibur.com/index.php/wiki/view/page/17 these are my ship-only awards. They are used just for my sim to recognise players who do good efforts. I still have more to add, just working on building the database up
Anodyne Productions' premier online RPG management software
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Beautiful Night 09-Nov-19 04:53 PM
i think crews choice is also a good one. Not just I, the CO think you're great, but so does everyone else
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 04:53 PM
One of the awards we do is based on quiet achievers and it seems to be well received. It helps people who aren't as prolific at posting to feel involved and important
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 04:53 PM
I also do post in the spotlight, where we pick a post that we things was just awesome and recognise that with a award and attention.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:54 PM
That's awesome.
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:54 PM
I'm also making something of a magazine for SB118
Like a NatGeo
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 04:54 PM
crew choice didn't work for us. No one wanted to vote...
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Leam-Mark 09-Nov-19 04:54 PM
@Beautiful Night that is a good idea
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:54 PM
It's a great way to give some 'everyday life' flavour to the setting
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Leam-Mark 09-Nov-19 04:54 PM
i'm going to add that one right now
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:55 PM
Oh no. Now I have Coldplay stuck in my head again
๐ŸŽต Hold tight, for everyday life. ๐ŸŽถ
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Beautiful Night 09-Nov-19 04:56 PM
@Leam-Mark can't take credit. that's been an OF standard, and probably other fleets, for as long as I've been simming
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 04:56 PM
(Stay On topic @<°°> Yoda ) (edited)
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:56 PM
Sorry
It's in my head now!
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[PF] Amethyst 09-Nov-19 04:56 PM
Crew choice is a common award. I've seen it given out a lot, and yes, there is a sense of pride that comes with knowing that your crew mates think enough of you to nominate you.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 04:57 PM
I really like the award but I got tired of having to practically beg my crew to vote.
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:57 PM
Awards are great
They give a ense of appreciation
We have a Yearly award show on SB118
On Elenlond we award the 'Writer of the Month'!
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:58 PM
Yeah, it's kinda pointless when you have to beg people to vote.
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Beautiful Night 09-Nov-19 04:58 PM
@[16th Fleet] Kate I have similar. but even if one person submits a nomination, then the nominee gets it. and the nominator gets a community builder for taking part
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Wallflower 09-Nov-19 04:58 PM
I've gotten a player of the month award before, it made me feel really nice about my writing for a time
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:58 PM
๐Ÿ™‚
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 04:59 PM
On SWRP we even elect a Member of the Year!
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 04:59 PM
I have to put on my hosting hat for a moment. Our next and final session is about to begin in #ffxi-room-one. Since there's nothing else scheduled for this room, you are all more than welcome to let the conversation continue.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 09-Nov-19 05:00 PM
great idea to use the community builder award for voting participation, @Beautiful Night
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 05:00 PM
I hope that everyone was able to take something away from this session today, and that the remainder of FallFest will be just as enjoyable.
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Leam-Mark 09-Nov-19 05:00 PM
@<°°> Yoda what I do is a post of the month, either a post I see was a great post of the month, or one that was submitted to me by a crewmember. I send it up to the fleet in my report and if it is not given the fleet/TF post of the month, then it automatically gets the post of the month award on my sim. That way they have some acknowledgement of their writing and their efforts each month
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 05:00 PM
I have an idea for this room!
@[22] greenfelt Pop quiz!
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 05:01 PM
I think we're going to just let this conversation continue on ๐Ÿ™‚
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 05:01 PM
I have a bunch of questions!
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[22] greenfelt 09-Nov-19 05:02 PM
Yeah, we're gonna stick with the conversation.
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<°°> Yoda 09-Nov-19 05:02 PM
But...but...pop quiz?
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[22] Kris 09-Nov-19 05:03 PM
We are sticking to the previous conversation. Sorry @<°°> Yoda
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Reminder BOT 09-Nov-19 05:45 PM
15-minute warning
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