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FallFest X
FallFest VII Sessions / ffvii-room-two
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:00 AM
1The moment Bravo Fleet decided to host, I was inundated with “Is this for Non-Trek people” ? The answer is a resounding YES! For the next hour we’ll not be talking about anything Star Trek. Trekkies, you’ll get your chance later. As you can probably tell from my avatar, I like the Muppets. I also enjoy Star Wars, Doctor Who (can’t wait for Christmas), Marvel movies, and a lot of other things. (edited)
Before we begin with any actual topics, my first question is, what do we have represented here today?
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 10:01 AM
I LOVE CHRISTMAS!!!!!!!!!
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:01 AM
Christmas is incredible.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 10:01 AM
I represent Great Britain!!
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Griff 09-Dec-17 10:02 AM
The Last Jedi or the Twelfth Doctor’s final episode. I don’t know which one I’m more hyped for, honestly.
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:02 AM
I live in England and I drive buses for a living
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 10:02 AM
I have VIP Tickets for Star Wars
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:02 AM
I've also bought tickets for Star Wars
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Mobius 09-Dec-17 10:02 AM
I usually find the Doctor Who Christmas special disappointing tbh, hopefully this is better
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:02 AM
I have run sims small ones mostly in Star Wars (currently one is in set up stages) and in my own science fiction and my own fantasy universes.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:03 AM
Very cool, @Carde
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:03 AM
Other than Trek I like Star Wars, WWII history, football and my local public transport scene
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:03 AM
I am also considering a sim in a more current day or near future setting
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[IDF] Charles Star 09-Dec-17 10:03 AM
I like Pokemon
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:04 AM
I also volunteer for a charity once a month
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Griff 09-Dec-17 10:04 AM
WWII history? Dang, nice. I’m a naval warfare geek myself.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:04 AM
I've stuck to mainly Trek, but I have played Wolverine on an X-Men sim, and I've commanded a Firefly.
Both have fond memories for me.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:04 AM
I love militairy history period and specially I love to know all about the militairy tech being used 😃
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:04 AM
I love WWII History.
And WWII movies
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:04 AM
Naval warfare is my main focus of WW2 history although I'm interested in all aspects
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:04 AM
I just really love technology and history
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:05 AM
I run quite a few fantasy universes myself that have nothing to do with other stuff I do.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:05 AM
So @Annabelle Iowa vs Yamato, your judgement? 😛
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:05 AM
I frankly enjoy writing non-future stuff sometimes.
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:05 AM
I'm also interested in the various outcome scenarios
Yamato
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Griff 09-Dec-17 10:05 AM
Pfft. Iowa.
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Camila 09-Dec-17 10:05 AM
I'm big into Treknology and coming up with new things to introduce
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:05 AM
It’s actually kind of refreshing getting Something different
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:05 AM
Although if I had to say any I'd say Bismarck any day of the week
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:05 AM
Walks off the fire has been lit
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Griff 09-Dec-17 10:05 AM
Better accuracy, almost equivalent penetration.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 10:05 AM
I sell promethium and Promethium Accessories
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:06 AM
That beast took a pounding and still stayed afloat
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:06 AM
I have to admit, while I had no idea how this Topic would turn out, I certainly did not see us veering so close to the military and history this early into it.
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Griff 09-Dec-17 10:07 AM
Indeed. Bismarck was a fearsome ship indeed. It took three battleships, a battlecruiser, numerous cruisers and destroyers plus and aircraft carrier to sink the beast.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:07 AM
Bismarck was a WW1 design
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 10:07 AM
Should I post Kancolle, since we're talking about botes?
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:07 AM
frankly in slugging match it would have suffered badly.
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:07 AM
And even then her own crew sunk her
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Mobius 09-Dec-17 10:08 AM
What was the question again?
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:08 AM
Gonna nudge this back to simming now. 😃
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:08 AM
Most of what I write has some kind of military or adventure theme and I think a lot of people are that way. They kind of stick to what they know and lots of people who write this stuff are into that kind of stuff.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:08 AM
What types of non-Trek sims do we have represented today?
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 10:08 AM
I have done BSG but it was a struggle.
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:08 AM
Well I used to roleplay a naval warfare sim set in the WW2 era but that folded a few years ago
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:08 AM
I host two non-trek games
And actively world build a couple other ones
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:09 AM
Star Wars for me currently in settup, going to be very samll scale bases on an X70B phantom in the old republic era.
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:09 AM
Me and a few friends played the various navies of the world. I chose the Kriegsmarine and ended up with something broadly similar to the planned fleet post Plan Z
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:09 AM
@[GEC] Kai1701E that's an excellent way to segue into the next question.
For everyone, attracting players is always a chore.
In a non-standard universe, how does one attract a player base and stay afloat?
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:10 AM
Which is why with these non trek sims I tend to run them mostly with a friend or a few friends.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:10 AM
One idea I have been playing around with which I’ve been trying to get people to want to do is a post apocalyptic setting following an event called the reach which basically was a human caused disaster which change the magnetic poles and the foundation of the earth itself to where “magic“ begin to exist
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:10 AM
and keep them small scale avoiding the need for a lot of people, beside that I am historically TERRIBLE at recruiting
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:10 AM
My friend and I looked for fellow naval enthusiasts
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:10 AM
In addition this disaster killed most of the human population
I’ve got a couple people who are interested in it but not enough to actually start anything but I like the post apocalyptic concept
Anybody else into post apocalyptic stuff
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:11 AM
@[TNU]Atsumari I did play around with a setting like that once, same issue not enough folks for it.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 10:11 AM
The problem these days is I dont think people really know where the best places are to recruit
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:11 AM
I've often thought about rebooting that RP site but I'm not sure I'd get the interest now. Even if my interest in the genre is stronger than it has been for a while
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 10:11 AM
Known groups have disappeared and nothing really replaced them
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:11 AM
Good thing we have a session about recruiting coming up then.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 10:11 AM
I have a suggestion for that group later
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:12 AM
Well the problem for me to is with all these ideas I create I write them out I get it all cool and awesome looking but with nobody to write it doesn’t go anywhere
Even recruitment sometimes is not just the issue with that. If you have nobody writing with you no one is going to join your game
And a lot of people tend to stick to what they know anyway
So that makes it even more complicated
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 10:12 AM
Thats the problem too. I think for most genres, you need a few invested people minimum to get it afloat (edited)
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:13 AM
Exactly I completely agree
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 10:13 AM
And people that dont bail quickly
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:13 AM
That's the problem my friend and I had. We didn't really know that many people who were interested in naval warfare and had enough time to invest in it
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:13 AM
So how do you not only attract those, but keep them?
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:13 AM
I mean people are even afraid of my universe and it’s a known future parts just the whole idea of something different I think scares people.
If it’s not something they understand the first 20 seconds They just move on
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 10:14 AM
I think to keep those people, they need to have equal weight and "ownership" over the creation in the beginning
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:14 AM
Have everyone have an equal Stake
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 10:14 AM
They have to feel important to its success
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 10:14 AM
I've seen some RPs give rewards for high word counts
If you could implement something like that it would be like crack
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:14 AM
You really need story pullers as I call them, people who on their own get others to write with them and not just depend on the CO
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 10:15 AM
I don't know how to do it with the format Sims use though
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:15 AM
We gave rewards too. We'd unlock certain ship classes for completing various assignments and continued post quality
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 10:15 AM
@Carde knows from my BSG attempt. It started off well but quickly several key people bailed or disappeared. It suddenly became less worth it
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:15 AM
And bases in various countries
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:15 AM
There is one thing though some people seem to completely separate role-playing and sims
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Mobius 09-Dec-17 10:15 AM
Yeah, post quality seems like a better thing to encourage than word count
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:15 AM
Yeah that BSG projected started nicely and then pretty much from 1 week to the next went silent
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:15 AM
In my like 20 years of doing this I’ve come to realize that they’re basically the same thing all we do is just a genre of replaying play by post role-playing it’s just a type of role playing using different terminology might scare people away
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:16 AM
I'm a firm believer in quality over quantity
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 10:16 AM
@Annabelle I'm talking on the player level, not the CO level
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:16 AM
All were doing is role-playing in a particular format
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 10:17 AM
I kept count for my BSG group too. 8 people registered an interest, none of them joined
I only had a few core people join and even they left
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:17 AM
That’s actually how I’ve gotten a lot of my players. There are people who I write with whom refuse to do anything with “writing” but I show them the story and I tell them that they can do whatever they want to do and they don’t see it as a writing anymore
They see it as playing a writing game with their friends
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:17 AM
Success for a Simm involves heavy involvement from not just the GM, but the players as well. To do so, requires a certain amount of freedom given to the players by the GM. How far is too far?
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:17 AM
I guess it all has to do with framing
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:18 AM
My players have a near 100% freedom as long as it does not create contiuity conflicts
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:18 AM
How far? I'd say when it starts interfering with someone's story or the overall story of the sim
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:18 AM
How would you define "interfering" @Annabelle? (edited)
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:19 AM
So I have an interesting experience with this. I let some of my writers have extreme freedom and I’ve actually had some of the most fun I’ve had in years. I believe at some point you do need to give the people who are most active in your group the most control because they can help turn your story from something that you were starting to not have interesting to have in the complete 180 and you actually love doing what you’re doing again
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:19 AM
When someone does something which affects the outcome. For example someone searching someone's files for incriminating evidence before the storyline is supposed to conclude
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Camila 09-Dec-17 10:19 AM
Great question, @[22] greenfelt. I have found that giving too much freedom results in the storyline going astray, but not giving enough freedom for players to write leads to stagnation and players leaving. I'd say putting out a general guideline for the mission and several alternatives for each major outcome would allow for greater creativity and a better storyline .
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Annabelle 09-Dec-17 10:20 AM
It's a fine balance
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:20 AM
It's a fine balance indeed.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:21 AM
So here’s how my main universe is managed from a story perspective. We have a committee of writers that are above the GM team they vote on major problems that the GM’s are having or if players report a problem and then the regular players
You could almost cycle out a committee like that so that way all of your writers have a say in things and it’s not just with the GM says goes
It allows everyone to have a stake in the creative process
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:21 AM
What is "world building" like for different sims? Obviously, simms set in a Star Wars universe have a rich history to draw upon. But, for an apocalyptic setting, how would you create the "world" and make it accessible to potential players?
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:22 AM
But not so much so that you have 1000 talking heads
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Mobius 09-Dec-17 10:24 AM
To start world building, I would create rules first. What can magic do and not do, for example. Keeps things in check and consistent. If you wanted to keep it accessible, don't overload it with lore that isn't relevant.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:24 AM
This is going to sound strange but most of my world building sort of happens randomly especially for my fantasy and apocalypse settings
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:24 AM
It's not strange at all, @[TNU]Atsumari
And, @Mobius how would you define as overload?
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:26 AM
The one thing though that stimulated my writing was writing more and not having restrictions. I don’t know how happy people are going to be about this but a lot of my creative work lately has actually come out of writing on an erotic role play forum. Even though there’s adult writing in there it actually helped me to build ideas out of literally nothing
I guess the change in venue is maybe what helped spark my new ideas
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Mobius 09-Dec-17 10:27 AM
If you have to slog through a wall of text about every detail about the universe before you start playing, it's too much. Like, you can have all that information about the world you want to build but don't throw it in a players face before they can write. Drip feed it to players as they progress. Like for Star Trek, all you really need to know is who the Federation is, what they do, and the name of the ship. You don't need to know the 1000 year backstory of how the federation formed.
If that makes sense (edited)
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:27 AM
It does.
And the joys of doing this at work... had to take care of something. 😉
All right, let's pick this back up.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:31 AM
I’m jumping between channels so far pretty good discussion
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:31 AM
Recruitment is one challenge. Engagement is another.
How do you keep your players continuing to move forward, whether your base is 3 or 30?
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:33 AM
I’ve always tried to give the players some kind of connection to the story whether it’s a relationship, a specific purpose that’s beyond to just with their role is or something that basically ties them to the universe keeping them continuing to want to write
Like with one of our writers I have her helping me write the backstory of our backstory
Now that sounds complicated and it really is but the concept itself is not overly complex because it’s just giving someone something they enjoy to focus on so they stay invigorated about writing (edited)
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:36 AM
We've talked about WWII role-playing earlier.
Most simming, at least the simming I've experienced online, is strictly written from the individuals imagination, which isn't like most table-top venues.
Has anyone tried to merge the two?
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Griff 09-Dec-17 10:37 AM
Isn’t there a BF sim that’s trying that? An Enterprise era sim?
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:37 AM
I'm not sure...
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 10:38 AM
I could imagine something, but it seems somewhat risky. You're introducing a very random element in a structured story setting.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:39 AM
Dice rolls?
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TarHeelÉire 09-Dec-17 10:39 AM
@Griff I'd joined it, but it was apparently already dead
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Griff 09-Dec-17 10:39 AM
I tend to agree. Dice rolls can sometimes cause events that don’t necessarily make narrative sense.
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 10:39 AM
If your captain is a Dimplomat, he can probably talk himself out of most issues, unless the dice decide.
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Mobius 09-Dec-17 10:39 AM
Sounds like it would only really work with an experienced mod at the helm. Interesting experiment to try tho
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:39 AM
We have done a combination of roll20 and dice rolling
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 10:39 AM
You're trying to do two different things by combining them.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:39 AM
And that’s actually part of where we get a lot of our writers from we have some people who specifically play tabletop that have joined our group because of that aspect
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Griff 09-Dec-17 10:40 AM
How does it play out @[TNU]Atsumari? 😃
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:40 AM
It’s quite nice when you have a battle going on where in enemy ship could end up doing heavy damage to the ship because he rolled at five instead of 15
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:40 AM
I tried some DND not a fan because of those dice rolls
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:40 AM
It actually adds a lot more unknown to the story and it gives people something to strive for even if it’s based on the look of a dice roll
People actually come to write because they don’t know what will happen
Adding the human factor to that it makes it even more of an unknown
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:41 AM
I much prefer to just play to what can be expected and believe me if the battles are though we take a serious pounding, lost 2 ships in combat for that reason
❤ 1
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Griff 09-Dec-17 10:41 AM
Unpredictability is a fair point, yup. It does make action scenes more exciting, now that I think about it.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:42 AM
Also if you have relationships going on and other things like that where characters are bound together and the player feels that bond if let’s say a battle happens and someone might die that adds a level of suspense
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:42 AM
It does take certain types of writers though that can handle that and also accept that they will loose certain things. Most writers consider their character imortal which is why I have a rule on my sim that character are mortal and events can injure or kill them.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:42 AM
Well I always get a writers permission before I kill their character
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:43 AM
O.o
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:43 AM
It’s only happened four times in my whole 15 year history of writing
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:43 AM
I get that permission when they join my sim 😛
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:43 AM
But it was the major things when the characters died.
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TarHeelÉire 09-Dec-17 10:43 AM
@Carde glad to hear that
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:43 AM
One such death was used as a plot device and then the character was brought back
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:43 AM
In essence I play according to actions have consequences so if you are being stupid or heroic you might very well end up in trouble.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:43 AM
But it was used to change the life of one of that characters partners
Basically change their entire persona
Because they lost the one that cared about
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:44 AM
Hell I am fine with having the entire ship being a total loss if that is how the story goes. Keep in mind writers have a ton of freeedom so if a battle suddenly turn for the worse, because my sensor guy writes in 3 more new combattants well yeah we might be toast 😛
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:45 AM
Anyway I hate to cut my contributions short but I do need to take a nap so I will be back later.
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Griff 09-Dec-17 10:45 AM
“Stupid or heroic.” Well, my main character is currently charging like a madman at an armed pirate. Admittedly, I am favouring the Rule of Cool over realism.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:45 AM
Sleep well!
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:45 AM
By giving people a lot of free everyone can still be surprised because well things 1 person introduces can be just that
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:45 AM
If anyone wants to hammer my head into the ground at any point feel free to add me on Discord but I’ll be back for later sessions.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:45 AM
I favour realism a lot more
If we end up in combat in a mission, believe me I will be keeping track of the torpedoes fired 😉
😍 1
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:46 AM
Time has flown. We've got about 15 minutes left in this session, so I turn the "mic" to all of you! Is there a question (NON-TREK) on your mind that you want to ask?
Even if it's "Who's The Last Jedi?"
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:46 AM
Not me cause Sith baby 😃
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 10:46 AM
It's plural, that "last Jedi"
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:46 AM
And frankly while I love them movies I MUCH prefer the setting of the old republic
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Griff 09-Dec-17 10:46 AM
God, I can’t wait for that film.
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 10:47 AM
Any advice on writing for a Battlestar sim?
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:47 AM
I hope Rian takes us to the Old Republic.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 10:47 AM
Actually, I saw an interview with Rian Johnson and he said he considers Jedi to be singular
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:47 AM
Anyhow would anyone ever want to make a hard sci fi sim like the expense setting?
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 10:47 AM
I imagine so, I got a lot of positive feedback for hard scifi ala BSG
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:47 AM
BSG is semi hard
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 10:47 AM
@Intumesce I did a BSG and it was hard
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 10:48 AM
Hard of Difficult, @[GEC] Kai1701E ?
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:48 AM
with full on hard sci fi things get really tricky as there is so much to consider.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:48 AM
Don't try to reproduce Galatica. I know it sounds extreme, but avoid its milestones. I've often wondered more about the details of Pegasus... cut off during it all and having to go it alone.
I always thought about who else was "stranded" after that.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 10:48 AM
The story was easy. I came up with what I thought was a good plot.
It was getting the people to join or stay
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 10:48 AM
We're running with our own ship that got hit relatively softly during the first wave
Right now we're a Destroyer without fighters on the scouting line, near Cylon territory
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Sandy Thomson 09-Dec-17 10:49 AM
I miss the days when there were a good number of Fantasy/Forgotten Realms RPG's around.
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Griff 09-Dec-17 10:51 AM
The fantasy genre has somewhat exploded in the last twenty years. I’m a little surprised that there aren’t more fantasy sims around.
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Sandy Thomson 09-Dec-17 10:52 AM
The very last one's I've seen are on Yahoo groups, but even those are slowly but surely dying off.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:52 AM
I tried my own fanatasy sim, did not last long. MY main issue though is that I like my fantasy properly explained when I am writing in it. Just how I am so guess that goess against the grain of most people being like "It is magic deal with it"
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 10:53 AM
I run a couple and see all sorts of forums with them on them
Anyway I really need to stop looking at this chat
Lol
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Griff 09-Dec-17 10:53 AM
It’s so addictive...
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:53 AM
We're nearing the end, everyone. Any final thoughts?
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:54 AM
Yeah whisky or Vodka?
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Sandy Thomson 09-Dec-17 10:54 AM
If anyone can give me a link to a Fantasy game, please send it in a PM, I'd like to have a look, thanks.
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Griff 09-Dec-17 10:55 AM
Peter Capaldi is a god who should be worshipped.
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 10:55 AM
Excited for the Female Doctor!
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Griff 09-Dec-17 10:55 AM
Otherwise, no other thoughts. 😛
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 10:55 AM
Scaredfor the Last Jedi to suck
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 10:55 AM
Vodka
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 10:55 AM
Thank you!
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:55 AM
Twice Upon a Christmas!!!
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:55 AM
I love Star Wars because I do not really care for it so even if stuff sucks I be like whatever, Star Trek well that is a different story 😛
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 10:56 AM
Well, thank you all for participating in this session.
Grab something to drink, head for the restrooms, for the next session is about to begin!
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Carde 09-Dec-17 10:57 AM
Just had a mid day pizza 😛
Well actually breakfast pizza cauise I whoke up at 1500 😛
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:00 AM
We’re going to try to keep this open to new and experienced players. If anyone has a question, toss it in the ring. I urge all to try and keep us on topic as we proceed. With that in mind, I have our first question.
When creating a character, where does your inspiration usually strike?
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:01 AM
Can be anything from a few words, to watching something to seeing a foto or a piece of art
Take the one I have here in my avatar just that picture was enough to inspire me to write a character
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 11:01 AM
Archetypical characters, photos of actors, or a need to fill a niche on a sim
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:01 AM
I want to explore a concept, so I make a character around that
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 11:02 AM
For me it's a cause, a goal or motivation that tends to come first. Inspiration for those tends to come from daily life all around me, what's happening in the news, how society might be different, how it may have gone in the past.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:02 AM
But then I love writing chatracters I have hunderds off them, I just love looking into the brains of others in life and writing characters is one way to do it.
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CaptRavenfall 09-Dec-17 11:02 AM
My characters usually has a name for for the area they will be going
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Narica 09-Dec-17 11:03 AM
I tend to wind up with a couple of personality traits and a background in unison. Tend to spend a lot of time figuring out timelines for anyone over like..20.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:03 AM
That actually brings me in nicely to point two @Narica
Backstory? How much is too much?
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:04 AM
You should have two versions. one summarsied to 1000 words or less, and then one you can go hogwild on
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:04 AM
Depends, I have character with under a page and it is enough and I have some with 6 pages and I am like well this still is missing bits 😃
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Narica 09-Dec-17 11:04 AM
I certainly support a shorter version if I'm going to expect other people to read it.
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FCaptTiger 09-Dec-17 11:05 AM
As long as it provides qualities to your character that ring them to life. Qualities that a reader can relate to.
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Sandy Thomson 09-Dec-17 11:05 AM
Usually from the real world around me. For instance, I have a character called Finchley Kerr and he came about from me seeing a bird in the garden (a Finch, so I extended that to the name Finchley) and there was a picture of a friend who's surname was Kerr, hence Finchley Kerr.
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Camila 09-Dec-17 11:06 AM
Short history posts can be done, or allow it to come out in character why your character is the way they are. With short history posts, you can give the reader a glimpse into a day in the life of the character, but your characters wouldn't know that. Bringing the history in character and telling it would allow for more interaction.
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 11:06 AM
A history should serve to justify how your chrachter is where they are, the way they are and what skills they have. If it doesn't cover that it's missing stuff. But pointless minutia and repitition can be dropped
👍 2
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:07 AM
Speaking from preference, I don't want to read a novella. I just want to get a sense of your character, because most of that biographical data is OOC information, and if its really important you'll tell me when we're writing.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:07 AM
I do believe one should be able to get a good feel just by readin the personality bits, those to me are quite key
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Griff 09-Dec-17 11:08 AM
I do like bios that leave a sense of mystery. It’s lovely to find a character whose bio doesn’t necessarily tell the whole story.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:08 AM
So, what are the elements of a believable character then? What elements help to bring your characters to life?
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:08 AM
mm I want to know all there is from an OOC persepctive specially as a captain.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:09 AM
@Carde oh true. Like if I was a CO I'd want atleast 1000 words to know some thought had gone into it
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:09 AM
I always keep the rule of a character needs to make sense, when you read a character you need to feel like said person belong in life, possition and rank where they are at now.
@Deleted User length does not matter to me though, just needs to make sense 😃
Simple example I always use a person with anger issues is not going to be a chief security officer.
Cause with an issue like that you would be totally unsuitable for that kind of a job.
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:10 AM
My characters' bio is the way how they come to life. I am in favour of longer bios, if the characters aren't very young. And I update the bio regularly to bein line with the latest developments in the story.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:10 AM
Violence is the best solution though
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:10 AM
I agree with @Carde
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Capt Kate "Collie" O'Neill 09-Dec-17 11:11 AM
I agree 100% with @Carde
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:11 AM
For me, I have to, HAVE TO, have an image. That element is crucial to my character creation. I often spend an hour or so looking, staring, changing my mind etc. I know I have a character when I look and the ideas just flow.
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Narica 09-Dec-17 11:11 AM
In terms of reviewing or trying to find character hooks a bit of length is good, but there's a point where it's a ton to get through and I only have so much time.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:11 AM
So, comming to life. I use characters that have conviction.
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 11:11 AM
A believable backstory isn't one where belivable or normal events happen (within limits) afterall we are RPing extrodinary people. But it's one where the people in it have believable and justified reactions to those scenarios. Maybe not your reaction but ones within the bounds of reason
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Griff 09-Dec-17 11:12 AM
Having an image certainly helped with one of my characters, yup. I stumbled upon a picture of Christopher Eccleston one day and it all clicked into place.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:12 AM
Funny I only have an image of my characters if an image was the inspritation to writing a character., I write one from other other form of inspirtation they will NEVER have an image cause no image could be the one that I have in my mind 😃
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:12 AM
I have an image too. An actor/ singer/ sportsman usually.
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 11:13 AM
For me an image is the last thing on my mind, and a pysical description tends to be the last thing i write. When I do write it it tends to be something that compliments or underscores a personality element.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:13 AM
I just do the physical first to get it out of the way
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:13 AM
HEre is a question how often do you write a new character based on one you already have?
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 11:13 AM
But physical is important I conceed, not for the writer but for the reader and reactor
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:14 AM
I rarely do that, but my characters that are in use are always evolving, changing.
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Griff 09-Dec-17 11:14 AM
@Carde I try to avoid that, actually. The whole point of a new character for me is to be new.
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NevadaTrekkie 09-Dec-17 11:14 AM
I always start with the image and build my characters from that image.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:14 AM
Cause I have several versions of certainc haracters each with a common origin, but totally different in the end 😃
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Narica 09-Dec-17 11:14 AM
I do it a lot. It's an interesting way to figure out what the actual core of the character is.
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:15 AM
Sometimes I use new characters, sometimes I adapt others from other writings
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Camila 09-Dec-17 11:15 AM
How much of you do people put into their characters versus coming up with a completely new character that's nothing like you?
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:15 AM
I am using my Dominion War sim to explore the earlier lives of several of my 2380's characters
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:15 AM
Why do you call your games sims instead of RPGs?
Sims are different games, video, someone showed me
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Camila 09-Dec-17 11:15 AM
Sim = Simulation
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:15 AM
My characters always have bits of me to different degrees
I think Jane outside of her gender and being Half romulan is not to different me in reality.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:16 AM
Let's go with @Camila's question first to keep on topic and we'll come straigh to @Elena afterwards.
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 11:16 AM
I sometimes write chrachters aroudn the same problem or question. So one person may react to that problem with solution X. Then I write one many months later who has solution Y to the same issue (edited)
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 11:16 AM
My characters tend to be better versions of me. The ones more attractive, more friendly, more professional.
So both a lot and a little for me.
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mynameisrayb 09-Dec-17 11:17 AM
a few characters are based off me, but tend to grow in a different direction after certain experiences. (getting trapped in the Andromeda Galaxy, and watching fellow cadets being slaughtered)
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:17 AM
Each character has something of me, but many of them very little, just a trait (ambition, or passion for foreign languages, or for writing, or not being able to have children). All the other parts are original (or a mix of other inspiration sources)
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:18 AM
I do think in the end I always think about how the character would react to certain events and it is easier if they are similiar to you in that regard, but the challange is when they are not and I like having a mix of that.
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Camila 09-Dec-17 11:18 AM
I like to put at least one aspect of me in each character I have. It gives me a small basis to relate to the character and I evolve it from there
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 11:19 AM
I tend to have one bit of me in every charachter as a way into thier head. A starting point for me to understand them. But from that 1 common point it varies hugely. I've played people I would disagree with vehmently or dislike, I've played people who are very simillar. It differs vastly. But like Camila I have 1 point like me
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:19 AM
I will say some of my best writing comes from characters closer to me, think @[GEC] Kai1701E You very much loved Sierra right? 😃
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:20 AM
Yep
I did
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:20 AM
Marisa has my sense of humor, politics and I really wanted to fly fighters. But then I also play a Sororitas elsewhere that wants to purge the heretic and burn the xeno and has little to do with me
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:21 AM
I have zero medical experience and she was the first medical chartacter I had ever made and worked out greatly playing to my strengths and keeping the medical side on a more general superficial level.
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Capt Kate "Collie" O'Neill 09-Dec-17 11:21 AM
I tend to start with simply a concept and then let my other RPer's help me develop the character more. That is what happens in real life to me. You are changed by those around you and it makes it easier to related to other characters I interact with.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:21 AM
I suppose I do want to burn things though
laughs maniacly
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:22 AM
Characters can change, but I tend to write them quite well settled at their point in life, but after that interactions can change them, but it cannot be a 180 type of deal to me I never buy into that period
😍 1
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:22 AM
Lol.
Okay, so, next question: How often do you actually reference your bio? How often do you reference it in your writing?
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FCaptTiger 09-Dec-17 11:23 AM
Less often than I like? Lol
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 11:24 AM
It's true that the core of a person is fixed by about age 12. As for referancing the bio it varies hugely from situation to situation. Often it simply may not be relevant, other times extreamly pertinent. But no matter what I periodically re read it to stay on target as it were
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Griff 09-Dec-17 11:24 AM
It depends on the character. For some, rarely. For others, there are significant life-changing events that can’t be ignored. One of my characters was frozen in cryostasis for eighty odd years, and I find myself regularly writing the “man out of his time” thing.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:24 AM
I do not mention it in my writing, but I often take a peak at them when writing specially in the times when I could have over a dozen characters active on the same number of sims things got a bit hard to mentally keep track off. These days though I only have a few and mostly I can do it by memory, but it is still handy to take a look both as your bio and those of others in the post
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Camila 09-Dec-17 11:24 AM
I reference mine all the time and keep track of what's been said and been done by my character to help me move forward. I don't want to say my character's a Command Sambo fighter then they don't know it, so having a point of reference is very good to have. Especially if you run into a character that knows Command Sambo and challenges you to a fight.
😍 1
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:24 AM
Marisa's old man is a congressman for earth gov which is minor in this particular mission. And she had a deep distrust of intel based off events. But I like to be coy with all these things
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[22] MBremer/K'Temoc 09-Dec-17 11:25 AM
Really depends. With my FAdm Bremer character, very rarely because I've played him 20+ yrs. New characters, more often as they are established and come into their own
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FCaptTiger 09-Dec-17 11:25 AM
I generally use my bio as a tracked timeline of growth for my character
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Narica 09-Dec-17 11:25 AM
the longer I've played the character the less I have to look back on it.
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:25 AM
@[GEC] Kai1701E I reference often my bio in writing. This is why I update it periodically with what happened in the story too
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:25 AM
@[GEC] Kai1701E Other question, do you ever burn out on your characters or otherwise get bored of them?
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:26 AM
Oh, do you guys mean look at them? Very rarely
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:27 AM
I never get bored of my characters. They finish their role in the story, they can die or get in the background, but as long as they are needed in the story I am never bored.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:27 AM
I had Nathan Hunter as my go to CO character for years. In the end he just became stale and blah. I eventually wrote him into a plot where he became a terrorist in TF9. It gave me a way to bring him to a conclusion if you like and soon, he will reappear for a final finale.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:27 AM
I have some embarassing snowflakes from my youth
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 11:27 AM
I have gotten bored when they have "won" when thier objective is achieved and until some event unsettles them from that state of victory they can get dull.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:27 AM
Azulas, I got bored of. I took a break from her for a few months and revitalized her. Fixed her bio up a bit, changed her look and BAM! I'm in love with her again.
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Griff 09-Dec-17 11:28 AM
I have gotten bored with characters, yes. There’s actually one character whom I’m considering murdering, since I’ve simply lost interest in him.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:28 AM
I tend to get bored rather swiftly of many characters and those whom I really like tend to come to their conclusion somewhow 😃 Like Sierra was amazing and I could have kept her going, but her own story just made that not possible as keeping her going in the role she was in would not fit with her character.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:28 AM
@Griff if you need help, I'm a master at killing characters 😝
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Griff 09-Dec-17 11:30 AM
Excellent. I do love a good gruesome murder. 😛
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:30 AM
LOL
So, before we start discussing murder plots and going MASSIVELY off topic
How often should a bio be updated?
How often do you revisit them?
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:31 AM
I rarely update mine, I tend to write new ones mostly, Only a rare few of mine have been updated 😃
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:31 AM
Tbh i really only update if i do character development but that's me
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 11:31 AM
I tend to think they should be updated after a major event or something that impacts personality and opinions in an important way
😍 1
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:31 AM
I update them every 6-12 months. After significant things happened in the story
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:32 AM
I always intend to update my bios after each mission. It never happens, so it is usually at the end fo each "season" (5 missions on my sim)
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Griff 09-Dec-17 11:32 AM
Meh. I don’t update mine much. In almost two years on BF, I’ve only had to update a character bio twice.
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Camila 09-Dec-17 11:32 AM
A bio should be updated with each major event. Getting a promotion in rank or position, getting married/divorced, having children, losing a loved one, etc
😍 1
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:32 AM
I guess most of mine never last long enough to warrant updating 😛
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:32 AM
Basically what @Camila said
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:32 AM
Heh same @Carde
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Griff 09-Dec-17 11:32 AM
Major events don’t necessarily happen every week, after all.
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mynameisrayb 09-Dec-17 11:33 AM
I tend to update my characters after each sim or 3-4 months
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:33 AM
I think most of my updates have happened when sims have had reboots, or she has gone through something major
So, does anyone have a character where bad things just seem to happen to them all the time, no matter what you try IC or OOC?
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:35 AM
slowly raises hand
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:35 AM
I guess so...
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:35 AM
Poor Miles O'Brian
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:35 AM
Lol
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:36 AM
Tell us, @TSCN
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Capt Kate "Collie" O'Neill 09-Dec-17 11:36 AM
I try to be the "marilyn munster" of STF lol
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:36 AM
Well, i guess i did cause most of their misfortunes (edited)
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:36 AM
Well I had a tripple agent character a long time ago on the USS Amazon in Horizon fleet (uch bad memories) anyway he was just attracting problems as well he should in that role 😛
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Capt Kate "Collie" O'Neill 09-Dec-17 11:36 AM
I almost find more fun in making people write silly.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:37 AM
I used to have a character that was 100% [Suffering Intensifies] But it was her own damn fault most of the time
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:37 AM
Same lmao
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mynameisrayb 09-Dec-17 11:37 AM
@Capt Kate "Collie" O'Neill XO's hot tub? lol
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:37 AM
Like, don't have a one night stand with the XO, it never ends well
😛 1
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Capt Kate "Collie" O'Neill 09-Dec-17 11:37 AM
For example.... I know it is not everyone cup of tea but I made my CE put together a conference table on wheels in the briefing room
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:37 AM
Lmao
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Capt Kate "Collie" O'Neill 09-Dec-17 11:37 AM
yes a baaaaaad idea holding a meeting under an attack but
i am not sure they knew what to do with me
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:38 AM
I have an npc who is kind of a drunken ass but can't get over his past. He ended up starting to get over it and then he was replaced by a doppelganger and shoved into a space closet for 3 months
Yeah, not the xo lol been there
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Capt Kate "Collie" O'Neill 09-Dec-17 11:38 AM
I also made it come from IFEA and not IKEA so it was a piece of junk ot begin with
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:38 AM
More like he came onto me IC
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Capt Kate "Collie" O'Neill 09-Dec-17 11:39 AM
I think each ship needs that comic relief. WOrks well in movies even the action ones.
and yes...the XO's hot tub should always be used by junior officers.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:40 AM
Comic relief does need to fit in and done well though and that is not easy
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Capt Kate "Collie" O'Neill 09-Dec-17 11:40 AM
not it is not always
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:41 AM
Ye
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Capt Kate "Collie" O'Neill 09-Dec-17 11:41 AM
but you can set up the scene and as long as you are not (and i am not one to be too fussy with details) i just let people run with it
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:41 AM
Oh and don't date half Betazoid psychologists
Psychologists are bad enough
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Capt Kate "Collie" O'Neill 09-Dec-17 11:42 AM
It surprised me how many people want to take a crack at breaking poor Jacen Drayke's table when given the chance
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:42 AM
but ones that can read your mind
shudders
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:42 AM
I miss the days of forum sims where it was a little easier to have different missions on the go. I always used to have a serious mission and a comedic/light relief one on the go at the same time.
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Capt Kate "Collie" O'Neill 09-Dec-17 11:42 AM
okay so question....does that half betazoid thing irk anyone else lol
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:42 AM
@Deleted User you might want to stay away from my Beta intel op then hehe
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:42 AM
Telepaths in general should be shot
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Capt Kate "Collie" O'Neill 09-Dec-17 11:43 AM
I mean there is nothing more annoying than when the betazoid suddenly can "read" your emotions when it benefits them
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 11:43 AM
@Capt Kate "Collie" O'Neill shifty eyes....... No.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:43 AM
My emotions and thoughts are my own thank you very much
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Capt Kate "Collie" O'Neill 09-Dec-17 11:43 AM
But i have found a way to combat that lol
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:43 AM
I always support social positing as much as I can cause it is the core to a sim to me, but the story of that differs depending on the setting
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Capt Kate "Collie" O'Neill 09-Dec-17 11:43 AM
I do what i do in real life...."I fake the grin" lol
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 11:43 AM
But in all seriousness overdoing it is just dickish, it should be done to serve a chrachter.
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:44 AM
I try my best to avoid convenient emotion sensing when i write betas (unless it's plot relevant)
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Griff 09-Dec-17 11:44 AM
Betas?
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Capt Kate "Collie" O'Neill 09-Dec-17 11:44 AM
if everything appears in rpint that I am on top of the world the betazoid or telepaths cant come out and be like "wait you are suppoed to be sad" if they are cliaming they are not reading your actions and expressions lol
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:44 AM
Betazoids**
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:44 AM
The Infiknity is a warship and everything about her reflects this so things tend to be more serious and dark. On the other hand on the USS Stargazer the whole thing was a mix of serious and total siliness that just worked perfectly. I mean we had an AI computer, a steam punk style robot as sciene officer an vcice admiral in command who spend a fair bit of time cooking for the crew 😛
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:44 AM
Im lazy and shorthand a lot
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:45 AM
The player who did the boyfirend was very nice though, and didn't get in my face about it
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:45 AM
Ok all, we have just 15 minutes left for this topic. Are there any last questions people would like to ask?
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:45 AM
Yes if you write a character do you have a certain rank in mind?
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:45 AM
Of course I do.
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:46 AM
Ye
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:46 AM
Fleet Admiral
every time
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 11:46 AM
Sort of, I tend to have a job and arc in mind and then pitch the rank that suits that job / arc
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:46 AM
every time shot down
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:46 AM
Excellent question. I generally create a character depending on the position I am applying for. So, I usually ask the CO first.
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:46 AM
I mean, a common sailor can't speak the same way/ have the same history like the first lieutenant, who had to be nobility
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Griff 09-Dec-17 11:46 AM
Yup, typically. There can be some give and take.
I have adapted a character’s bio to fit with a lower rank than he should’ve had, and it turned into a rather great plot in the end.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:47 AM
Personally I tend to have a rank in mind and at times that rank is pretty much set in stone cause it fits the chartacter's background. I have had arguments with COs who where like, but then I cannot promote you as a reward and I am like "I do not care about promotions not awards" 😃
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:47 AM
Yes, adapted history can work 😃
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:47 AM
My comfort zone with rank is between ltjg and ltcmdr, but i always write for the lowest, but i also consider other roles on the ship and the interactions as seen in posts
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:48 AM
What I have done mainly for NPCs is take some of my characters modify the timeline a bit and remove the last bits from the bios to have them slot in at lower ranks.
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mynameisrayb 09-Dec-17 11:50 AM
as of now, all of my characters range between Lt and Fleet Captain
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:50 AM
I do enjoy writing naive ensigns tho heh
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:50 AM
I have from ship boy till Rear Admiral 😃
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:50 AM
So, last question from me: NPC's and PNPC's - what lengths do you go to when/if you create them? Do they get the same treatment as main characters or are they just getting the bare minimum?
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:51 AM
Depends on how much i use them
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:51 AM
For me it's only NPCs, without a P in front, and regular they get a bare minimum in bios, but there are exceptions when a former played character becomes NPC
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Griff 09-Dec-17 11:51 AM
I’m a lazy arse, so I tend to just do the bare minimum with NPCs. I figure out their personality and that’s about it.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:51 AM
Depends if I need them to fill certain spots I just take some of my characters I have, If I just need names than that is what you get 😃 In general though a PNPC will be a full character in my eyes
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:52 AM
I'm going to say this. I don't like writing with PNPCs because most people are lazy with them.
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:52 AM
One of my npcs (the unfortunate soul who was shoved into a space closet) i have a detailed backstory for, one that i hope to bring into a simm one day, so i have thaf written out. But i also have ones that are just "brown hair, 5'7,"
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Jme 09-Dec-17 11:52 AM
NPCs: Serve the plot. "Oh you need a customs officer? OK, here's a bare bones customs officer" pNPCs help drive the plot. They should have goals and motivations that helps them come alive
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:52 AM
And even if they aren't, they are never as integeral to the core as a PC.
❤ 1
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Jme 09-Dec-17 11:52 AM
Whether that's a villain or an ally
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:52 AM
For me it's NPCs all around - they serve the plot, and help drive the plot.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:53 AM
I would love to guest write some villians
Always been interesthing in doing something like that.
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:53 AM
Do iiittt
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:53 AM
They are regular characters, just with less writing time and which can be shared among several writers. One should keep it active only for one thread, then the next thread they might write the NPC if they have time, or somebody else would.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:53 AM
Just need some one to need one and well accept that with a player behind it there will be thoughts made and is the tricky bit as it in essence becomes a PVP sim vs PVE sim 😛
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:54 AM
Its always a PVP sim in my experience
the crew vs the CO
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:54 AM
My PNPCs like my characters are mine and mine alone to control I am fierce about that 😃 General NPCs anyone can use.
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:54 AM
What is PVP and PVE? I have heard only about the first
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:54 AM
Player vs player and player vs enviorment
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:54 AM
Player Vs Player, Player Vs ...
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:55 AM
I was gonna ask the same thing lol
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:55 AM
gotta work on my wpm
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:55 AM
😃 OK. the first one, in the version I had heard, was not about player 😛
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:55 AM
oh
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:55 AM
So both are new for me.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:55 AM
what did you think it was?
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Carde 09-Dec-17 11:55 AM
Gaming therms 😃
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:55 AM
Okay everyone. @[22] greenfelt is going to open an overflow room to continue this discussion as we are almost out of time here.
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Jme 09-Dec-17 11:55 AM
PVP is usually considered bad because you're pitting PCs vs PCs
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:55 AM
Please join in there if you so wish 😃
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 11:56 AM
NPCs and PNPCs... oh my!
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 11:56 AM
#ffvii-overflow is open!
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 11:56 AM
Great discussion!
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Elena 09-Dec-17 11:56 AM
@Deleted User , I heard it used once or twice about those who write smut
So P comes from something else than player - Porn 😛
Porn vs Plot I think it was
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Jme 09-Dec-17 11:57 AM
o.O Learn something new every day
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TSCN 09-Dec-17 11:57 AM
Wait what lol
Oh lol
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 11:57 AM
PVPERP
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 11:57 AM
Okay everyone, we will now take this to #ffvii-overflow please. Thank you for your very valid points. I have loved chairing this session.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:00 PM
Hello everyone, and welcome to "Star Trek: Beyond Nemesis."
Yes, I purposely played off the last two movies of the TNG franchise, and the attempt to reboot the Trek Universe.
We are here to talk about the future of the future.
One could argue that the Star Trek Universe really ended after Star Trek Nemesis, which according to Memory Alpha, was 2379. Star Trek: Online begins in 2409. Some groups/simms have slowed down the timeline, others are charging ahead to the STO era. Why did you or your group, or game, make the decision that it did?
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 12:01 PM
Well, Bravo Fleet is approaching the end of 2388, as lots of us will know.
We have had several policies to try and slow down the passage of time.
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mynameisrayb 09-Dec-17 12:03 PM
STF actually never changed. Since we were founded in the early 90s, our club lived through TNG, DS9, VOY, and the movies. We only adapted after Nemesis
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 12:04 PM
Bravo Fleet had made various policies changes in regards of time overlaps. This was more in red line to give writing groups the space they need to catch with the story line. The Bravo Fleet community acknowledge for a few years a combination of 1 fiction year was 4 years in real life. We recently changed this to 1 fiction year towards 2 real life years. This made the progress faster in certain areas of stories 😄 This btw a fact sheet 😉 you can maybe apply it to your group 😄
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:04 PM
How excatly have you adapted, @mynameisrayb?
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mynameisrayb 09-Dec-17 12:07 PM
We keep all of the canon players, but we also create new ones past the known borders. We've also created some equipment, as to say Starfleet has made some improvements. Such as the WTR-600, which is an updated version of the wearable Tricorder, which we see in Elite Forces
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:08 PM
I've seen some groups in the middle-2390s. Others, like Bravo Fleet and Revolution Fleet, are still in the 2380s. What are the advantags to remaining so close to what we've last seen?
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 12:10 PM
That begs the question, how do we develop something that is timeline related realistic? For example, time travel is a sensative topic....how do you develop something like that when in (for example) STO already doing it. Do you take it step by step or BAM its there like a freaky accident?
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 12:10 PM
I think by staying so close we dont have to try and come up with new technologies, ships etc
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:11 PM
But how long can one remain in the "past" ?
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 12:11 PM
We're in the past and the future all at once
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:11 PM
STO, which launched in 2010, is even starting to show its own age.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 12:12 PM
We haven't even got to that point IC. STO actually can give us something to aim at if we so need to.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:12 PM
And, even though it's now free-to-play... not all of Trek players have embraced it. Has it been difficult in your simm/group to integrate at least part of what it has to offer?
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 12:12 PM
I was aiming to see what the ratio would be in development in various different communities regarding technology. In Star Trek we are spread over a time period of 2380 to 2400 and further. Star Wars as also various time lines...when does a technology come in to play. This also applies towards the sailing sim of @Elena , I am very interested in that kind of development
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Elena 09-Dec-17 12:13 PM
No, we are in the year 1720 and the technology is of that time. No longitude, only latitude 😉
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:13 PM
Oh, that's going to lead me to my next question, and boy... is it a loaded one....
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 12:13 PM
But 1720 is a very imporatnt age in development of technology we bare to know these days
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mynameisrayb 09-Dec-17 12:14 PM
STF has its own fleet in STO, so we aren't against STO lol. But I think in 6/7 years when we reach 2400, we'll have some of what we see in STO
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:14 PM
Technology, especially in the last 10 years, has totally transformed. We see its influences on Enterprise, Kelvin Universe, and even Discovery. How do you balance what we know can be possible in the future with what we understand of the Prime Post-TNG timeline?
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Elena 09-Dec-17 12:14 PM
Yes, but the news come to the West Indies a bit later 😉 after they are tested and approved in Europe
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 12:14 PM
@Elena awesome :3
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:14 PM
The Eugenics wars didn't happen
How do you reconcile that at all?
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Elena 09-Dec-17 12:15 PM
Even the signing of the peace in the War of the Quadruple Alliance happened mid-February and got the news sent to West Indies late April...
And it was true , in 1812 war, about a ship who engaged the enemy... but the peace was already signed. They didn't know yet
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:16 PM
I think we all need to just accept that Star Trek diverged from our timeline back in 1995
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:16 PM
Let's set aside the Eugenics Wars for a moment.
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 12:16 PM
@Elena love that, makes so much sense
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:16 PM
All over Discovery, we see holographic displays.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:16 PM
Oh, that's easy
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 12:17 PM
True something I am actually applying in my current posting
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:17 PM
When we last left the VOY universe, there are no such interfaces in sight.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:17 PM
Cyber warfare went mad following STD, so they simplifed the technology
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mynameisrayb 09-Dec-17 12:17 PM
maybe a different universe
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:17 PM
either that or different federation members design different aesthetics
either that OR STD is Kelvin timeline
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:18 PM
@Deleted User I think you're taking me too literally here.
The look of TNG was impossible in the 60s.
In fact, the look of TNG is in danger of becoming as campy as TOS, thanks to developments in CGI and set design.
How do we bridge what our current artists are capable of, compared to the direction of the Star Trek Prime Universe.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:19 PM
Never, the use of detailed models will make it mostly timeless
Uniforms were a bit dumb though
oneses for days
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mynameisrayb 09-Dec-17 12:20 PM
lmao
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:20 PM
And Dust Buster Phasers
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:20 PM
I feel that we should advance treknology. To continue to use things last seen in TOS/Nemesis shows stagnation. We've seen what they've done on Discovery as Greenfelt22 pointed out and the apparent disappearance of it in shows based beyond that. Now we have items in real life that were based off of Star Trek, like personal tablets from PADDs and cell phones smaller than communicators. We need to come up with R&D to show the advancement of the technology since the last movie and come up with treknology based on what's been shown, but evolved to something new and improved. The theme is to seek out new life and new civilizations, so why wouldn't new technology be part of that?
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:20 PM
Hey, give me a biomonitor from TMP!
We all have taken tremendous liberty with species and new cultures.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:20 PM
The problem with that is where does it end?
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:20 PM
Where's the line with technology?
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:21 PM
because if you follow that logic you're then also going to include hard core cybernetics and transhumanisim
which are not startrek themes
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:21 PM
Why should it end? You can put limits on it, but to stagnate is to stay in the past forever and continue to do the same things over and over again.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:22 PM
But then it stops being startrek
like
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:22 PM
No, it doesn't
Do you have the same computer you used ten years ago or have a cell phone that still requires a battery pack?
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:23 PM
Theres a difference between a smaller phone and a direct link to the interent with your mind
Basically, I see technology developing like that pushing us into cyberpunk territory, which has completely different themes compared to Star Trek
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:24 PM
That's where wisdom comes into developing new treknology.
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:24 PM
Look at the advancement of Treknology from ToS to TNG. Did they keep using the hand communicators and outmoded phasers or did they streamline and advance?
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:24 PM
Cyberpunk is its own thing.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:25 PM
I mean, dust buster phasers were a step backwards
the original phasers were rad, they were like a type I and a type II in one
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:26 PM
It took a while to get to the Dolphin used in Nemesis. Too long in fact.
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:27 PM
Let's take the uniform that I created for my sim. I used modern discoveries, combined them from the research which has been scientifically proven to work, and made a Starfleet uniform which makes the wearer impervious to a certain amount of phaser hits before it gets destroyed. Otherwise, @Deleted User, your character would be stunned with a simple Type I phaser instead of having the chance to warn her CO that someone's on the ship
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:28 PM
I'm not saying that all tech development is bad. I'm saying that there is a limit to how much modern tech you would want to include in star trek if you want it to stay star trek.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:29 PM
In Bravo Fleet, we've found that this has been a hard line to draw. In three cases, we've actually kept some technology out of players hands.
Quantum Slipstream, Transphasic Torpedoes, and Voyager's Ablative Armor.
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:29 PM
So why are we not developing more new tech? Why not have a device which instead of stunning someone, it fires a transporter tag and beams them to the brig?
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:30 PM
@Camila raises a good point
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:30 PM
Again, I think that's fairly innocuious
But AI and Cyberisation are friggin scary
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 12:31 PM
The Slipstream thing is very difficult to incoperate without ...well effecting the story line. I do wonder how other groups deal with such technology (random question, sorry!)
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:31 PM
We don't have to go that far and be transhuman. I'm just advocating the creation of new technology based on current equipment shown in TNG/Nemesis and evolving it along a natural line.
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 12:32 PM
@Camila borg wink
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:32 PM
Transhuman = borg.
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:32 PM
Bork bork bork
Oh...Borg. Ignore that.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:32 PM
Well maybe
Ghost In the Shell has some interesting theories on that
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:33 PM
I don't think we're talking about advocating transhumanism and such. I think the point @Camila is trying to make is that we can't keep moving towards 2400 with the same technology last seen in 2379.
When you look at Discovery and see some of its fancy tech, one has to wonder why technology can't evolve to that level in the Prime Timeline circa 2390.
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:33 PM
Starfleet's mission is peaceful, right? Yet, they always encounter danger, so why not give away teams armored protection? Or ground transportation like the Argos buggy? Or non-lethal weapons like a transporter tag gun
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:33 PM
I can see things like holoscreens not taking off though
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 12:33 PM
@Deleted User such as, I love Ghost in the Shell so I know what you are talking about. Improvement of mankind
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:33 PM
I mean, I have a mechanical keyboard
@RaWolfe It got so many things right too
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 12:34 PM
Oh that is true
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 12:34 PM
Ultimately, I think this is where we can start to develop our individuality. Yes, some things are dictated as larger groups. But at sime level, there are still things you can do technology wise and explore.
Like uniforms
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 12:34 PM
Ghost in the Shell is more focust on the body improvement that benefits the mankind
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 12:34 PM
Like weapons etc.
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:34 PM
Delivered between 2 to 5 business days96% reviewers recommend this product100% Money Back Guarantee Highlights: Keyboard supports mouse function for Android cel
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:35 PM
Like the whole thing about Stand Alone Complexes, I mean it needs a better name but it's bang on what happens on Reddit and 4chan
I like tactile feedback cammy
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 12:35 PM
Stand Alone was brilliant
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:35 PM
Interactive holographic technology is a possibility. They did it in Iron Man. So why not Star Trek, hundreds of years in the future?
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:36 PM
Marvel also had american ubermensches in the 1940s
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 12:36 PM
I think this will come down to a case of what groups accept as canon input from their sims. Nogura used different uniforms. We have tried different technologies. It is only a problem/issue when we try and take these things beyond our own sims
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:36 PM
So, the question goes back to those who help run organizations.
How do you integrate these advancements? Or why are they sometimes ignored?
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:38 PM
I feel they're ignored because of the lack of it being shown in official Star Trek movies. Canon arguments come up every time something new tries to be introduced and it overwhelms the person trying to introduce the new item. Often times, the person trying to demonstrate something new is shot down before they can even make a full presentation with some form of proof that it would work.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:39 PM
So lets talk about Variable Fighters Cammy, and why you won't let me have them
GWtogaTheSaddest
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:40 PM
They have no shields. They'd be blown away in one hit.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:40 PM
Curses, that's a good point
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:40 PM
Come up with a Star Trek based design with specifications for one and I'll review it.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:41 PM
Just as I was about to say... let's avoid harsh confrontations....
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:41 PM
Its a running joke
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:41 PM
@[GEC] Kai1701E what has been some of the problems you've experienced with that.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:42 PM
And it's too much effort
Though i've got some ideas if I can get my Solid Works fu going again
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:42 PM
I'm all for integration of new Treknology as long as it's an open discussion without old arguments. Sure, there sure be limits on what's developed based on if it fits or not, but staying in the past only leads to constant repetition of the past and that gets boring. Show me stats for a gun that shoots quick hardening foam to immobilize an enemy.
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:43 PM
-4 to moblity
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 12:43 PM
With what @[22] greenfelt
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:44 PM
That's a thing though, because replicators are basucally advanced 3d printers you could rapid prototype all kinds of crazy stuff
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:44 PM
[11:36 AM] Kai|BF|USSNogura/Templar: I think this will come down to a case of what groups accept as canon input from their sims. Nogura used different uniforms. We have tried different technologies. It is only a problem/issue when we try and take these things beyond our own sims
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 12:45 PM
Every approach in every technology is bringing their own unique problems, let it be unknowing of what you are dealing with or using it in the wrong way
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 12:45 PM
Well, lots of people have opinions on technologies, as we have seen here. A cloak for example. For some, it can be a good plot point, but try and take that to a wider group, it quickly becomes controversial. Same with some other technologies like slipstream/transwarp.
It is why I think it is crucial that large groups have a rule in place that allow sims to explore these things but not require them to be adapted into fleet canon unless the fleet agrees.
At the end of the day, fleets and groups exist for us, the players. We should be able to explore our ideas.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 12:46 PM
On the technology side star trek is a bitch to deal with because 9/10 times stuff was just put there for plot reasons. For a science fiction it does a bad job in just keeping to what it has and develop from there 😃
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 12:47 PM
That is why I love BF. I can explore most things and I get to choose what impact it has on the fleet, because if I dont pass it on, it doesnt go to TF or fleet level
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Carde 09-Dec-17 12:47 PM
Also I learned long ago to just run with tech, I mean transphasic torpedoes banned, sure I got 50 mission specific warheads onboard 😛
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:48 PM
Still, why not have an R&D department for the creation and experimentation with such new items before putting them out for the public to see and give their thoughts on in a logical, open minded manner? I've been in some discussions about things not being canon that basically turned into a coconut slinging contest to see who could beat the person talking about something new to death first.
😂 1
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Carde 09-Dec-17 12:48 PM
That said I been in the R&D shoes in a smaller fleet before and my rule with tech is much the same as with characters: "If it makes sesne go with it"
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:49 PM
Weaponry doesn't seem like a big deal. I mean the dominion had polaron so the federation started using abaltive armour. It's unnessesary for most stories but it's not a big issue
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mynameisrayb 09-Dec-17 12:49 PM
our R&D dept is our Eng Dept in STF. lol
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Carde 09-Dec-17 12:49 PM
Also do understand that trek tech is inherrently limited because of the time when it was created, if Star Trek was made now electronic warfare hacking and the likes would be playing key roles.
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:50 PM
How does it far, @mynameisrayb?
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Dec-17 12:50 PM
StarBase 118 used to have its own Corps of Engineers group but it hasn't really been that active
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:50 PM
Slipstream changes everything though. What would take 140 year to circomnavigate now takes 5 minutes. I mean you could go to other galaxies but then you're dealing with completely different landscapes
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:50 PM
Why not introduce that to your game, @Carde? Show how it's used or misused. Point out the pros and cons. Starfleet Intelligence does it all the time, but it's rarely shown.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Dec-17 12:51 PM
Yeah in our fleet it's by CO preference whether to have it aboard their ships
So for instance, it's not on my own ship and we actually went the opposite
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Carde 09-Dec-17 12:51 PM
@Camila I have in the past, but if you do it pretty much turns the entire combat flow on it's head and be unlike anything trek writers know 😛
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Dec-17 12:51 PM
Our campaign region has a speed limit
😂
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mynameisrayb 09-Dec-17 12:52 PM
it actually does really well. The Engineering director and his assistant will go through the draft and see if there's any errors or anything contradicting to star trek, and then it's open to the public to review. at the end, it's either passed, or sent back to the creator for more editing
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:52 PM
It's the future. Warfare changes constantly. Evolve with it and counter it
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:52 PM
@mynameisrayb what sort of criteria are considered in adopting new tech?
And what sort of tech has your team accepted?
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:52 PM
Even back in the 60's electronic warfare was a thing
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:53 PM
Do you want to play a game?
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Carde 09-Dec-17 12:53 PM
@Camila I agree, but you got to keep things approachable for your players
I mean my tactitcal officers have had a hard enough time to adjust to the fact that they are not firing the shots, but direct 3 other tactical officers on which targets to shoot with which weapons 😃
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:54 PM
I can only see it giving operations more to do.
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Camila 09-Dec-17 12:54 PM
So do a small demonstration based on an experimental ship. It can A) Go horribly wrong and people will cringe from it or B) It can show an advantage that will allow more exploration opens which will open up new frontiers
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:54 PM
Electronic Warfare seemes like an ops thing
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:54 PM
We're coming up on the end of the hour, but that does not mean that the dicussion has to stop. We'll have to move this to #ffvii-overflow
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:54 PM
not tactical
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Carde 09-Dec-17 12:55 PM
Partly, but I also like the idea of computer cores batling it out trying to hack eachother and disable ships that way 😃
So would be a joint fight of ops wanting computer power for that and tactical needing for its weapon plots 😛
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mynameisrayb 09-Dec-17 12:55 PM
it's a bit much to explain in detail, but we do have formats and criteria for each item or ship that wants to be submitted . (https://www.star-fleet.com/ed/modernnavyplan.html and https://www.star-fleet.com/library/bookshelf/tm/classification.html for ships) and (https://www.star-fleet.com/ed/technology-submission-policy.html for technology)
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 12:55 PM
I kinda want to see someone write this
I dont think they understand that typing two different things at the same time works. Then the guy just pulls the plug. WIN!!
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:56 PM
Oh, that's cool, @mynameisrayb
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mynameisrayb 09-Dec-17 12:57 PM
So while our tech may go beyond what is seen in star trek, we do keep it themed and consider items as upgraded versions, or something similar to the technology.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 12:57 PM
@Deleted User jep
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Narica 09-Dec-17 12:57 PM
I once had my character run a cybersecurity test program that made loud noises through any systems it compromised a a distraction. That was fun.
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Jme 09-Dec-17 12:59 PM
@Aitas - I can see a lot of paranoid characters hating you for that on a certain starbase 😉
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 12:59 PM
All right everyone. Thank for you a very interesting session.
Again, the discssion doesn't have to stop, but we will have to move it to #ffvii-overflow
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Leam-Mark 09-Dec-17 01:03 PM
Hey @everyone welcome to our next session, that being Recruitment: Finding Fresh Life. I'm your host, Leam-Mark. Before we start, I will give you a quick overview as to where I come from. I've been simming as a CO for about 10 years now, I've seen numerous players come and go in my time and at a fleet level through both Bravo Fleet and my time in Obsidian Fleet, I have served in numerous roles; including as OF's 2nd ever Fleet Recruitment Director (not sure about the position now). I've also served as their Personnel Management Director prior to moving full time here to Bravo Fleet. This panel today is going to discuss recruitment in this new era of simming and ways in which CO's can find new players, and retain those players, but also a little bit from the player's side as well and what players can do to help from their end
Now, recruitment in this day is not how it use to be 10 years ago. When I first started, recruitment was channelled through things like Yahoo! Groups, forums, mailing lists, word of mouth and for those involved in one, fleet recognition and brand exposure. Now, these days, a lot of recruitment is done on fleet forums, and social media (plus the traditional word-of-mouth). But we also are in a time when people aren't finding ST interesting and sitting down and writing about it, they don't have the passion (so to speak). So, finding those new people who are coming into the community based from the current crop of movies and now ST: Discovery, where they are a far distance from the majority of the fleets and sims that we have floating around (most I've seen are based in 2390's, a long time between the movies and them), so finding the interest in them to stick it out is very hard.
So, I'd like to start the discussion by asking a simple question.... where do you (as a CO, if you are one) recruit, or if you are a player, where did you hear about the simulation(s) you are on right now???
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:08 PM
Within the fleet really for me and I am just terrible at it. I also do not use social media so that does not really help much 😃
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STF,RAdmSalmon 09-Dec-17 01:09 PM
Well, as a member of a large club like Star-fleet.com, we don't have just one ship. We have many.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:09 PM
I just got lucky on my first sim that I knew a few people and others just walked up so to speak considering I started out my command independent (cause all fleets said I could not get a command cause I could not pass the accademy.)
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mynameisrayb 09-Dec-17 01:10 PM
In STF, COs and XOs only recruit for their particular ship, within the site. That leaves me, as MAC, to recruit externally
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:10 PM
First, the best way to recruit is simply to have your site be really active and really interesting. You can put out all the ads in the world and if your site and RP doesn't look worth someone's time it's not going to get them to join. Second, when your site and community is awesome it excites your members and THEY become your biggest source of recruited because they evangelize your community to their friends, and personal word of mouth is far, far more powerful than posting an ad.
👍 2
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:10 PM
Jep
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mynameisrayb 09-Dec-17 01:11 PM
it becomes harder when you find that banner exchanges actually hurt your ranking on search databases, and ads do become costly.
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[22] MBremer/K'Temoc 09-Dec-17 01:11 PM
For Starbase 400, I use social media, but also a few 'old' resources like a few banner exchanges, ad sites, and of course the fleet's forums. We do get a few new players from there from time to time, but most of our membership have been with the sim a long time, returning players, or players that have friends on SB400
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:11 PM
Though I would argue your people matter more than your site, my site tend to be basic cause I am not a coding let alone art wizzard, but they have all what is needed. What is important that i shows efforth is being put in. If I join a site and see some place holder text or no ship specifications I walk away
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Leam-Mark 09-Dec-17 01:12 PM
@[SARP] Wes you bring up activity, and that is something within the panel coming up, so thanks for bringing it up so early. Being active is a great recruitment tool, and it is also something I'll reference in my upcoming panel after this one
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Elena 09-Dec-17 01:12 PM
I have tried social media and all kind of directory forums and tumblrs, but I have no success lately. I saw sites which thrived without advertising, only by word of mouth. But I guess it needs having the right connections... and I don't have those.
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STF,RAdmSalmon 09-Dec-17 01:13 PM
@mynameisrayb finds the people, and I help find those people a suitable place based on criteria they submit.
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:13 PM
One of my biggest "secrets" to recruiting is I commission artwork of characters from my RP, and I ask the artist to link to the RP when they post the artwork on their DeviantArt, which exposed it to their followers, which can run in the thousands, and having a cool visual of your universe is also very powerful because it grabs attention. Also there's a lot of roleplayers on DeviantArt already.
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 01:13 PM
Networking is very important
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:13 PM
I will say for some one who is bad at recruting I get plenty of people who apply, but I maintain a high standard so easily 2/3 of applicants are rejected. Cause quality does appeal as well if I look through the bios on a sim and I am like these are shite I do not want to join that sim.
@[SARP] Wes Curious whom and how much does that all cost?
❤ 1
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:14 PM
You can also list your sites on places like the role-playing Wikia, Tvtropes, allthetropes, and other sites that let you make an article for your RP community on them.
Carde: Depends on the artist, some artists will draw your character for a twenty.
I think this one was $20.
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[22] MBremer/K'Temoc 09-Dec-17 01:15 PM
Role-playing wikia also has a recruiting page too, so not old can you build a wiki for you sim, you can place ads there too http://roleplay.wikia.com/wiki/Role_Play_Wiki:Recruiting
Please limit your ad to a few sentences and include a link to the article or website on the club/group/sim for which you are recruiting. Ads that do not meet this will be deleted. One reasonably...
Basically, it's the same old ad page that use to be on the old SImEnc page, just moved when SImEnc closed
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 01:16 PM
Might I ask something?
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:16 PM
no 😛
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Leam-Mark 09-Dec-17 01:16 PM
sure @[GEC] Kai1701E
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 01:17 PM
Why don’t we use today, this platform, to get someone to create a new recruitment site of some sort and get it out there to all of these groups we represent?
We have a lot of groups and people here.
It could benefit everyone.
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Leam-Mark 09-Dec-17 01:18 PM
that is a very valid point @[GEC] Kai1701E and something I'm sure fleets could look into
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:18 PM
....because people who are already in our groups are not the people who we need to recruit.
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Elena 09-Dec-17 01:18 PM
You can be also more active on RPG-Directory, Caution, and other resource sites
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Leam-Mark 09-Dec-17 01:18 PM
Discord has become a great way to interact with new players and the fleet and a tool that could be harnessed into recruitment
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:18 PM
@[SARP] Wes I beg to differ I am looking for a sim atm 😛
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Elena 09-Dec-17 01:18 PM
Having the rpg banner in your signature and provoking the curiousity/ interest of new people.
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:19 PM
Recruiting in other RP groups is like a human body whose cells are eating itself. We need to bring in new blood who has never roleplayed.
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[22] MBremer/K'Temoc 09-Dec-17 01:19 PM
A discord channel, dedicated to AdVerts for sims, shared by several groups...
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Camila 09-Dec-17 01:19 PM
I put a link in my signature banner to my sim
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STF,RAdmSalmon 09-Dec-17 01:19 PM
Discord for our group has become our new chat after we switched from IRC a while ago.
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Elena 09-Dec-17 01:19 PM
Not only, @[SARP] Wes . One can write in several setting.s
I am writing on my Age of Sail site, on Venice in 1792 and also a Viking story.
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 01:19 PM
@[SARP] Wes that does bring us back towards our first session 😉 Making a writing group active, having a good story and maybe good information on difficult species makes something fun 😄
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:20 PM
New blood is not my area of expertise I am bad enough at recruting as is. That said I am more than willing to help new players out I have had a few over the years which I turned from I know nothing about trek nor writing into great writers.
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:20 PM
I think that we should, as community leaders, not only try to grow our own ranks but push to grow the hobby as a whole. (edited)
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Leam-Mark 09-Dec-17 01:20 PM
I'd like to direct the conversation to something @[SARP] Wes brought up and that is new players, how do we encourage those who aren't in the community to join. Like @Elena said, there are many RPG/simming groups out there, not just Star Trek, so how do you think we bring those players that want to be involved into the community???
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:20 PM
You have to actually talk to them person to person.
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Elena 09-Dec-17 01:21 PM
Not only. Because generally this is called poaching and many staff considers it wrong
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:21 PM
Nothing replaces one to one conversations where you share your passion for your roleplaying.
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Elena 09-Dec-17 01:21 PM
You should be active on resource sites and talk about your site there and have your banners showing, so that others get interested.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:21 PM
Poaching is only when people leave an other sim
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Camila 09-Dec-17 01:21 PM
I got the vast majority of my players by simply talking to people with permission from the CO's other other sims. Very few came from recruiting forums or social media advertising.
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CaptRavenfall 09-Dec-17 01:22 PM
Share with them and let them make the decision. Anytime I do talk to people I make sure it I is okay first to share with eveyone
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:22 PM
That said if people get poached, clearly you need to step up your game to be a better sim 😛
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:22 PM
I will send people to places like RPG-Directory.com where hundreds of RPs are listed. Often I don't care if they join my RP, I just want them to join a good RP in general. (edited)
😍 2
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Camila 09-Dec-17 01:22 PM
Cross join. "You join mine, I'll join yours." Do banner exchanges with other sims and fleets.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:24 PM
To me anyone is welcome to recruit my players, if you want to put a news item up on my sim for your sim that is also fine, but I like one in return on yours. As for outsdie recruitment the sphere of people I am part of tend to either stick to DND stuff for their RP or RP only within games. The act of writing solely is demanding a level of creativity that is not to common anymore and worse not supported and encouraged with people these days.
😦 1
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[22] MBremer/K'Temoc 09-Dec-17 01:26 PM
I'm more than happy to do a banner/link exchange. We host a banner exchange on SB400 for any sim to join too. I even point out other sims to some players from time to time too. 'Poaching' players, going to another sim to recruit...I won't do
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:26 PM
I find it odd though seeing siming to me sounds like ideal to our current day quick fix crowd, update your JP in 5minutes as you wait for the train right?
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Leam-Mark 09-Dec-17 01:28 PM
@Carde that is a good point, how can those who are CO's find a way to get their players involved no matter where they are? It is only just making a site that is mobile compatable, or is there other ways in which we can bring our players and new players for that fact into the fold of the simulation???
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:29 PM
I wonder if I could start a sim in the Star Citizen universe plenty of people looking for RP in that game and setting and getting the permission for it should be quite easy I have some outstanding favours. Could be a new market, anyway that is a thought for later.
As for making it more accesible I think to be fair we are kind of stuck technology wise, because well how much technology does one need right and how much can one have without making it to complex for those who run it.
I went from Forums to SMS based sims which of course became nova, but at the core nova is really not different from sms in how one uses it.
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Leam-Mark 09-Dec-17 01:31 PM
anybody else have anything to add to this???
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:31 PM
I long been thinking about gamification of simming, cause people like to be awareded (and I am the worst at handing them out). Could that be a way to intise people, might not be the creative leaders, but still could get people in there who wrtie.
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Leam-Mark 09-Dec-17 01:32 PM
What do others think? Do those who are CO's have a way to entice people to join? What methods do you use?
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:32 PM
The thing is that you have to automate that sort of thing or the workload can grow excessive for the admins.
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Elena 09-Dec-17 01:32 PM
And the competition might be dangerous for the community
It can affect the storywriting, when instead of a good story written together, peoplewould want to win, to up someone else
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:34 PM
Well automation is badly needed, hell even a simple thing as being able to send out notifactions when people have been tagged 😃
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:34 PM
Competition is a great tool. I ran a thread necromancy contest for Halloween to raise the dead setting discussions and we got a ton of posts. People also did a ton of helpful wiki edits because of it. As prize we gave away free artworks and banners under their username
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:34 PM
Simming really could use a bit of a tech boost I would argue, we are a decade+ behind and that is not helping.
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:36 PM
We're not a Decade behind. I'm using XenForo, one of the latest and greatest forum softwares, Discord, etc. We've adapted to harness the newest tech.
The big things I see in future simming are artificial intelligence writer-bots and voice/video integration with websites.
Also something I'd love to see is MMO-style character creator screens right on the websites where you can build an avatar for your RP character right when you write their biography.
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Elena 09-Dec-17 01:38 PM
This is more about gamification than writing a good story together.
And yes, some people might be interested in this.
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Camila 09-Dec-17 01:38 PM
I'd be really interested in VR simming. You could be your own character and interact with others in real time
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:38 PM
I'm talkign about things like being able to narrate your post into a website without the use of special software.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:38 PM
Writing a good story together is something that some people enjoy, but if I look at the new modern crowds a lot would look at what is beign used for it and could not be bothered.
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:39 PM
Or, when you post your character's movements the site updates a map automatically.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:39 PM
I mean look at the tech star citizen is working on with face tracking and all, that shit will be amazing for real time RP and games in general getting better platforms for RP is direct competition for the pen and paper stuff.
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Elena 09-Dec-17 01:41 PM
I think I would be distracted by it. I am for collaboratively writing an interactive adventure story 😃
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 01:41 PM
@Camila are we talking about something like Bridge Commander ? Would be awesome if the development of that becomes opensource
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Camila 09-Dec-17 01:42 PM
Microsoft Hololens and beyond
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 01:42 PM
I watched a video this morning of a Disney animator drawing Ariel with a VR system.
Talent transcends technology.
It was the most incredible thing I've seen all year.
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[22] MBremer/K'Temoc 09-Dec-17 01:43 PM
I think we're a little off topic... moving back to Recruiting... and since we're getting close to the end of the time, would anyone like to share sites/resources for all to use in recruiting?
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Leam-Mark 09-Dec-17 01:44 PM
thanks @[22] MBremer/K'Temoc for that 😃 ducked away for 2 seconds
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:45 PM
(Is a king at going OT sorry)
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[22] MBremer/K'Temoc 09-Dec-17 01:45 PM
lol
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 01:46 PM
Evening all from a very cold London
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[22] MBremer/K'Temoc 09-Dec-17 01:47 PM
Please limit your ad to a few sentences and include a link to the article or website on the club/group/sim for which you are recruiting. Ads that do not meet this will be deleted. One reasonably...
Ladies and Gentlemen: Please post all RPG recruitment threads into this post ONLY! Any seperate posts will be closed and a link will be placed to...
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[22] greenfelt 09-Dec-17 01:47 PM
Welcome @Skoll. Glad you could make it.
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 01:47 PM
Welcome @Skoll !
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 01:47 PM
I've been doing some training... so sorry I am late... but at least I got here eventually
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Leam-Mark 09-Dec-17 01:48 PM
we have about 15 minutes left, so I'd like to say thanks to @everyone for all the great chat and discussion. Recruitment in this day and age is always going to be evolving and we all need to find the ways that work for us, but also that can bring in the new players to keep our simulations moving forward with new ideas and new writing. Working together to recruit is going to be a way that we ensure that the Star Trek RPG community stays active and flourishs and thrives. As @[22] MBremer/K'Temoc said, let's end the discussion with a bit of an open table as to places where you recruit and how you found using those areas to recruit, and maybe also some little tips you might have to help a new CO recruit for their simulation to keep the sim active and their interest in running the sim active
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Elena 09-Dec-17 01:48 PM
There are a lot of tumblr directories too
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 01:48 PM
12 😝
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Elena 09-Dec-17 01:48 PM
And twitter pimps who retweet links to 500+ followers
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:49 PM
mentions tumblr and twitter pimps, does at up....
😛
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:49 PM
😃
Maybe Trump will insult my RP Twitter someday.
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Leam-Mark 09-Dec-17 01:49 PM
@Carde and @[SARP] Wes lets try to keep the last little bit of the panel on topic please
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:49 PM
Anyhow one final tip, write an interesthing add for your sim and if you want to recruit someone please do not copy paste messages
👍 1
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:50 PM
Speaking of which, if you can get your RP linked on Reddit that's a good thing.
Some starship designs from my RP got linked in /r/starshipporn
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:50 PM
Anytime I get a copy paste message my reaction is F you to, want me to put in the effort on your sim and you cannot do the same to recruit me 😃
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 01:51 PM
If you are able to abide by its rules... I would strongly suggest that you guys use Caution to the wind
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Leam-Mark 09-Dec-17 01:51 PM
anybody else have any suggestions to help a new CO recruit for their simulation to keep the sim active and their interest in running the sim active, or how to recruit for new players, or places that you recruit
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 01:51 PM
www.cttw.jcink.net
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Leam-Mark 09-Dec-17 01:51 PM
can you expand on that link @Skoll
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Elena 09-Dec-17 01:52 PM
Another forum directory for RPGs
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:52 PM
I tried looking at Caution once and I had to look away. Their site design is not very user-friendly, to put it lightly. Tiny fonts everywhere.
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Elena 09-Dec-17 01:52 PM
I don;t like it, but I use it 😃
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:52 PM
In short tips for the sim: Keep it active, be critical of whom you let in, type attracts type so lots of wierd bios will attract more of them (can be a good or a bad thing) and finally make sure your wibsite is at least complete as in all the information is there.
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Elena 09-Dec-17 01:52 PM
Tiny fonts are a sought estetic in some parts. Not on my eyeglasses though 😛
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:52 PM
It actually looks significantly better now than it used to. (edited)
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 01:52 PM
Cttw is what the rest of the community uses (There are a lot of others) to recruit new players. It is widely used by a lot of the non trek games... I am not a star trek player... but I am a co runner of an extremely successful niche sim
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Elena 09-Dec-17 01:53 PM
What field are you into, @Skoll ? Your name seems Viking 😃
Or beer...
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 01:53 PM
It is not just a recruit resource... it gives you alternatives to pbem and if you use forums the skins available and posting templates and the like are extensive
I run with a friend the longest running teen wolf rpg... I also run a dc female centric game
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Elena 09-Dec-17 01:54 PM
Washington DC, or what DC from?
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 01:55 PM
Dc Comics.
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Elena 09-Dec-17 01:55 PM
Never heard of.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:55 PM
O yeah an other thing that will help in recruitment: Be unqiue, like really find something unique or not seen to much, it is a lot harder to recruit for cookie cutter sim 12432abde than for a ship with a vice admiral in command with an AI and an XO that never seen space or whatever 😄
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 01:55 PM
I don't play star trek games any more... used to a very long time ago
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Camila 09-Dec-17 01:55 PM
Always google emails from applications. Most people use the same email for multiple sims or can be found on sims they're no longer on. It can give you an idea of their style and you can contact the CO's to ask about them
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:56 PM
(O and ensure you have some sort of copyright item that means you get to keep hosting the work when people leave, cause well people can be.....)
👌 2
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 01:56 PM
To the new gm's I would say when you write out your site advert... make it jazzy, don't just put USS Joe Blogs looking for new players. Give a blurb of what your current mission or site event is, what you have and what you want and need. And don't be afraid to tell a player to take a hike.
👍 4
And be tough on your site posting requirements. If they can't post the minimum you want a week... trust me you will be able to find someone who can.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:58 PM
Also I am currently working on writing specific adds for specific possitions. So instead an general add for the sim it will be one focussing purely on finding say a Chief Engineer. Not sure how that will work, but I want to give it a shot
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 01:58 PM
Starfleet HR Division
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:58 PM
Yeah, enforce the damn rules, but also ensure the rules are achieveable
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Elena 09-Dec-17 01:59 PM
I was forced to choose between revisiting the rules and losing long time members, so I changed the rules.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 01:59 PM
I have in the past kicked very good friends from my sims for not being able to keep to the rules.
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Leam-Mark 09-Dec-17 01:59 PM
OK @everyone I want to thank you for the discussion about recruitment in this new era. Sadly, we have run out of time, and we have our next panel in here very shortly. If you could take the recruitment discussion to #ffvii-overflow that would be great
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 01:59 PM
I don't know what star trek requirements are like these days... but at TBIL my own site and others like it posting daily no matter how busy you are (And I am ridiculously busy) is not hard. Once a week for a character with a couple of hundred word limit minimum is not much to ask.
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Elena 09-Dec-17 02:00 PM
I used to ask for one post a week in every thread where they owed. It was feasible for the first 3 years, then it wasn't anymore.
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:01 PM
I can only come at this from a non trek perspective as I do not play star trek games currently... last time I did I walked away because I grew bored of waiting for one line replies on sites that said extreme activity
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Carde 09-Dec-17 02:01 PM
#ffvii-overflow people
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Leam-Mark 09-Dec-17 02:01 PM
recruitment discussion, please take it to #ffvii-overflow
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CaptRavenfall 09-Dec-17 02:01 PM
Our site has posting limits but most people exceed those limits
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 02:02 PM
Ok all we are now ready for our next topic. For which, we pass on to Hina of Bravo Fleet.
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:02 PM
Guys if you want to discuss further, I am available on over flow.
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[22] MBremer/K'Temoc 09-Dec-17 02:03 PM
@[TNU]Atsumari
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 02:06 PM
Welcome towards the next Topic of this so far great event. The Life Cycle of a Simm! Now my good colleague @[TNU]Atsumari is at the moment not available to do his hist, so I take it over for the moment. Until he is online! In various theories on various groups is the life cycle of a simulation or RPG group either long or short. It depends on various factors, in this discussion we can explore this topic. Look at the core problem of short sims and at the victor on long term groups.
So the first question that shoots into my head "What would you consider that is a top 3 requirement for a writing group to live on long term?"
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 02:08 PM
As a CO: Accept opinions and ideas from players. They are the life blood of a sim.
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 02:09 PM
Community members who can forgive each other, lore that grows and evolves, and leaders who stick around and put in the effort reliably
Related: For people interested in this topic there's a copy of the legendary Sim Group Papers from 2004 hosted on my wiki: https://stararmy.com/wiki/doku.php?id=guide:old_articles:sim_groups
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Elena 09-Dec-17 02:09 PM
Active staff members
A RPG is dead only when the staff throws the towel
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Carde 09-Dec-17 02:10 PM
1: Active CO, 2: Active crew, 3: A fun enviorment.
😍 1
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 02:10 PM
So basically saying, activity counts big time (seen back in various other topics before this one), a good and active story line that develops over time and leaders that stick around. @[SARP] Wes what would you expect of an active leader? When does it even count that you are active?
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 02:11 PM
Members have to see you doing stuff. For instance if there's a conflict on the site, you're expected to step in and arbitrate.
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STF,RAdmSalmon 09-Dec-17 02:11 PM
If you wanna know a secret to longevity, take a look at Star-fleet. We're going since 1991.
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 02:12 PM
@STF,RAdmSalmon oh do tell us your secret sause to the recipe 😉
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 02:12 PM
Fulfill people's expectations, mainly. Handle your business reliably. Build trust.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 02:12 PM
I thought we were talking about individual sims though?
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:13 PM
The beacon is lit (My site) Has been open four years. We've gone through a number of changes, we've been stolen from and massively betrayed by the thief. We've done what no other teen wolf site has attempted to do and we continue to experiment with new ideas. Such as what if scenario's, where players get to create a different version or write a future version of their characters. But the difference between me and you trek runners, is that I don't have to comply to fleet rules on canon and I don't need to obey the dynamics of a fleet hierarchy. If I want to go and try something daft I run it by one person and if that person likes it, we go have a discussion with our players then we do it if the players want it.
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 02:13 PM
Well we are, but it also overflows towards the effects of an organization.
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 02:13 PM
People like knowing that if they leave my RP/sim for a year because they're getting deployed to Afghanistan it will still be there when they show up again.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 02:13 PM
Excitement is the key.
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 02:13 PM
If you got an active group, an inactive fleet does not reflect well on that writing group
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:13 PM
You have to know what sort of stuff your players want to see. Do they want a star trek procedural or do they want to go blow stuff up on a weekly basis and then you have to deliver that
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 02:13 PM
Keep it fresh and exciting, dont let the story get stale.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 02:14 PM
Anyhow I will say I have had a pair of extremly active sims, but both died simply because I burned out, to much pressure on myself I simply could not keep up with it all.
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 02:14 PM
@Skoll that sounds harsh, but good that you are still standing!
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 02:14 PM
The best way to make something exiting is to have some unpredictability. Like you don't know what will happen next but you know it'll be awesome.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 02:14 PM
So as a CO do watch your own mental state, do not try to do much.
💯 3
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:14 PM
Independent star trek groups are popping and doing very well because they do not adhere to fleet dynamic's. Its an evolve or die type world these days.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 02:15 PM
My sim would be the last one to be called predictable considering anyone can just change things as long as it can make sense 😃
I could have had an idea for X to happen, but well players made sure it would be Y and then it turned into D and well tht was not enough so lets look at G. I love the fact that I only start a misison and the end is entirely up to the crew as a whole.
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:16 PM
Our key rule is if you do something stupid that could get your character killed, we will kill your character and you will not be given a choice so watch what you post
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 02:16 PM
@Carde I totally agree (I am not going to bring this up all the time, but it does weight in this topic), I mean I had to back off from command when the conclusion was made that I had cancer. My health became a first and my crew accepted that as good statement. Now a year further I placed my write group active and all returned towards it. That is for me a sign of loyalty and that the stories written there were good
Knowing your limits is very important!
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:18 PM
I got really bored of seeing people try suicidal things and then pull a god complex move to save their characters in the most improbable ways.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 02:19 PM
So with that being said what do people believe is sort of a requirement to that one should think of before taking it management of the game and in that respect what should players think of two before they decide to put their effort into a game? Also given The above what do you believe is the most important in improving a game’s survivability over time?
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Carde 09-Dec-17 02:22 PM
I will say anyoine who fancies a command should at least give it a shot, it is not an easy thing to lead anything and one way or the other you will learn from it. I will also say no one should tell them not to do it or prevent them from doing it. Personally it was a really difficult decision for me to join Bravo Fleet as a CO considering they like all other fleets had put me through an command academy and simply told me I had failed. Then I went independent and got kmyself 2 very succesfull sims. No test is going to proof is some one can handle command outside of actually doing it.
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:22 PM
A front page that doesn't look like a five year old wrote it. If you can't sell someone based on what is on your front page then you are doing something wrong. I want to be a single simple click away from all the information I need to know what kind of site I am joining. I don't want to have to go hunting through past posts, I need it to be right there from the moment I enter a site. If it isn't or if it isn't easily accessible I walk away. I want a "Look at me daddy I am so pretty" type site rather than a GM who couldn't be bothered to get creative with their front page. Where everything is that will do.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 02:22 PM
(To note those events where many years ago, but yes they did weigh in still)
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Deleted User 09-Dec-17 02:23 PM
Finding a sim that fits. Myself, I was just recently looking for one, and there were a couple that specifically did not permit custom alien races, which pretty much ruled me out, since that was what I wanted to make. You also can't help but look at the roster as well. Make sure there are actually people there to sim with.
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:23 PM
I'm tired of hearing its to hard to make that happen... its really not, if you don't have a knowledge of making pretty things for your site or a decent writing skill for a description of what the sim is about there are others who can help you.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 02:24 PM
So there are also a number of people here who are either not associated with the fleet or were self-taught back when they began writing and managing games... what is a crucial point that is taught in a command Academy that one would have to learn on the room and how would they best learn this?
(sorry if there are grammar issues I’m posting from my phone at the moment. My computer is deciding to be inappropriate)
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Carde 09-Dec-17 02:25 PM
@Skoll Reminds me of one thing I really hatel, people who put giant splash pages before their sim website or have those awefull skins wiht hidden menues. I want to take a look at your sim and have everything within ideally 1 or 2 clicks at most. It should be a good looking functional website not an art piece 😃
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 02:25 PM
Hello
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 02:26 PM
That’s also a good topic for this. Is there any experience anyone has on how a website affects the life of the game?
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Elena 09-Dec-17 02:26 PM
Well, invisionfree went the way of the dodo...
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Carde 09-Dec-17 02:27 PM
I found the website does not matter much I ran a bone stock titan skin for most of my days in nova and prior to that basis SMS stuff. The crew matters more, if people have fun they stick around.
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:27 PM
We use a chat box... which is on view for all to use when you click on to our site. We also have discord. We talk our future plans out with our players and invite them to make suggestions on how to improve and what they would like to see.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 02:27 PM
Hell if I had not burned out I would not be surprised if my original sims would still have been going.
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:29 PM
I haven't used nova in years (It was in its infancy when I walked away) but I found it to make the laziest players I have ever worked with at the time. I don't know how or what has been changed in the time I have been away (Five years) but I left star trek gaming out of boredom and have never returned to it. Never even thought about it mainly because of a fear of the same crap that made me walk away in the first place.
I almost stopped roleplaying altogether because of Trek simming.
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Viper 09-Dec-17 02:31 PM
One thing I've experimented with in recent years is the idea of making the outcome of the sim site more reader friendly. Like having the system produce an ebook-style result for each "episode". That approach seems to have made the sim a bit more welcoming and the story a bit more intelligible. Back when I first built SMS/Nova, I was still much too in the mold of replicating elements of PBeM that actually I think work against us in our storycraft.
😍 3
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 02:33 PM
So I have seen people mention that if you want to try to run a game you should give it a try, that the design of a website does not potentially have stake in your overall success in running a sim... There is a common theme throughout all fo simming though people feel recruiting is important and can determine the best or worst of a game. That along with what people have mentioned above all together point back to one key fact in how long a game lives; communication... How do you determine how much or how little to communicate with your players and if you are a player... With your GM team. @Viper That sounds like a great idea... Have you felt that helped your game a lot and is it something you think would help people get more into their writing or improve the life of a game?
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Viper 09-Dec-17 02:33 PM
Activity seems to be a big topic, but I think the question is what hampers it. And one of the big things I think is writers getting lost when they have to step away for a bit. It stymies engagement.
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:34 PM
You have to deliver what the player wants, its no good to just give them what you think they want. You have to know what they want by asking them and delivering it on your own terms
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Viper 09-Dec-17 02:34 PM
By making it more readable, it also lets people figure out if it's the type of story they want to engage with.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 02:34 PM
Especially if they get lost after coming back from a leave @Skoll
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Viper 09-Dec-17 02:35 PM
I'm also not the type that just gives every player what they want. Instead my goal is to give a clear idea of the sort of thing the sim is going to deliver on so they have an idea if it's the sort of sim for them or not. Rather than pushing to recruit recruit recruit, I seek good fit for long term commitment, even if that slows the post count in favor of the post quality.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 02:36 PM
Making sure they understand expectations prior to joining? @jonm
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STF,RAdmSalmon 09-Dec-17 02:36 PM
biggest issue of what hampers one of our sims is when the GM stops being active. For almost all our ships, the GM is the lifeblood of the ship and some ships can be fine for short periods, but we rely on the GMs for long term engagement.
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Viper 09-Dec-17 02:36 PM
Exactly @[TNU]Atsumari
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STF,RAdmSalmon 09-Dec-17 02:36 PM
except one ship where everything is self sim.
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:36 PM
every story line we do as a site event (mission to the rest of you) is extensively planned and executed with the imput of the players we have at the beacon is lit, teen wolf sites open one month they close the next. We've been around for four years and the reason we are still there and being stolen from is because what we offer is unparralled to the other sites also in our genre.
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Viper 09-Dec-17 02:36 PM
@STF,RAdmSalmon I totally agree. GM retaining engagement is critical.
@Skoll how do you balance surprising your players with a plot twist with planning everything out?
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:37 PM
But at TBIL we don't just do site events, we are an open world game with posts happening outside main site events... characters are developing constantly in other non site event threads
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 02:37 PM
So can a game survive its GM lossing interest or leaving the game and sort of handing over the control to someone else?
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:38 PM
We tell them what we are planning we don't give them all the details.
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 02:38 PM
A game can't survive persé without a Gamemaster, if its an alone stand writing group it is stuck.
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Viper 09-Dec-17 02:38 PM
@[TNU]Atsumari at times I or another member of my sim get pulled away for a month or whatnot even, but that point of selecting the right writers rather than the most writers has enabled us to pull thru those times just fine and adapt to RL circumstances (like a month long honeymoon I was on earlier this year).
Ah got it
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:39 PM
And there is only one person with all the info on what is coming... at the moment on TBIL That is me... and that has included human fireballs running round a college campus while the horseman of the apocalypse try and give it to a teen age wolf pack.
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Viper 09-Dec-17 02:39 PM
grabs the gas can
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 02:40 PM
Okay; so we have some pretty key points here so with that lets say we are in the first six months of our games could missing any of these points kill the game and if not how would one move forward with these challenges
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:40 PM
I can tell you what I want to do but I don't have to tell you how I am going to get you there and what you do will effect the out come of the site event
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Elena 09-Dec-17 02:41 PM
Yes, a game can survive a taking-over.
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:42 PM
To make a success of your site you have to be willing to take big risks... the bigger the risk the bigger the pay off in the long run. If your stories are explosive you will get bums on seats wanting to help make it bigger and better. Go big or go home/
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 02:42 PM
It has been pointed out to me lately that I have tried several different things in the last few months, concept wise, and most of them have failed. That could be seen as a bad thing and by some, it is. For me, part of the fun of simming is trying new ideas. New ideas keep things interesting for me. Yes, ok, things dont work. Some things I haven't seen through or have changed because of fleet movements etc. Sometimes people not joining, or dropping out quickly can change the whole concept/plan. I dont think a single person can keep an idea alive and, as a CO that tries new things, if it is slow I consider it a failure. I believe that new concepts, ideas and sims need to hit the ground running and pick up a pace quickly for them to survive their first six months.
😍 1
I also think we should not be afraid to try and fail.
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Viper 09-Dec-17 02:44 PM
I would agree on that. I've gone through a number of permutations of different premises over the years - some that stuck better than others - and some that would have worked but didn't quite work for me. It's important to kind of iterate to find the right balance. It's why as a TFCO I don't hesistate to allow someone to "reset" their story a bit if they find the premise they took isn't working.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 02:44 PM
Okay; so I do see people are still responding to these questions. Sorry that a lot of what I have been asking is not exact science; running any organization with people in it never really is. So two final questions unless people have things to springboard off of on this topic; does the format and system used by a SIMM improve or make any change to its survival as it progresses... Also how long should a game survive... Is there a point at which we reach where most games should fail due to age or can they last indefinately.... (edited)
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 02:46 PM
A game will survive for as long as a CO can keep it interesting and inviting.
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:46 PM
The game survives as long as you are interested in it as a GM... it doesn't have a shelve life and if you look it as a year long plan... give up and do something else running a game is not for you. Plan long term.
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[22] MBremer/K'Temoc 09-Dec-17 02:46 PM
Very true...I can confirm that lol
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:48 PM
Bremmers had the same game for over a decade... that shows what is possible if the core players remain interested. SB400 should be a centre point of what is achievable for a game in star trek if the interest is there.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 02:48 PM
So as a springboard question then while others respond for those who have ran a game for very long; some have ran them for 20 years as a single simm... Any advice on how your game lasted so long; was it just luck or is there something you can give as a tool to others to help their game live longer?
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 02:48 PM
And I have run sims for 5 years and two months.
Sometimes I think luck plays a part. When you find the right people that settle and stay, then that really helps.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 02:50 PM
Alright. SO does anyone have any questions they would like to add to this topic; I am going to open the floor up for people to ask any question they want; if I have covered it or not as we still have an extra 10 minutes.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 02:51 PM
I recently came to the conclusion that I succeed and run better sims/missions when I am part of a larger Task Force wide plot. It gives me and my sim a greater focus. What helps people to focus and ensure their sim progresses and lives on?
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:51 PM
I don't run a star trek game... so I can't come at it in the same way you guys do.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 02:52 PM
Well this topic can cover any game @Skoll I use the same concepts in my fantasy games and with my one on one RPs with individuals.
And in my opinion what helps people focus is helping them fin da passion for their game; people who have a true love for their story tend to run things longer in my experience.
As a final note if no one has anything else I am sorry for the delay in getting to my desk my main computer was having trouble. It works now so thanks for the help from @RaWolfe and thank you for those who added their input into this topic.
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 02:55 PM
We have a secret success at TBIL... well not so much a secret but a well guarded known fact. Our owner was a consultant on the show teen wolf and specialise in mythology... that she is a fricking professor and knowledgeable on a personal front of what myths we are using are like helps explains someones limitations to a new player.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 02:55 PM
Passion and knowledge in a topic really do help in that regard.
Well if no one has anything else we have a couple minutes until the next session. Thanks again to those who participated.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:00 PM
Ok @everyone it is time for me to take over with the next topic. The Darker Side of Trek: We have seen some dark events in Trek. DS9 largely addressed the issue of war (whether with the Cardassians, Klingons or the Dominion). We have seen terrorism, covert intelligence with Section 31, we’ve even seen people turn on their own kind. I have 5 questions to ask and then I’ll open the floor to you guys for your questions and thoughts. I know that some of the topics that may come up here may be somewhat sensitive, so consider this a warning and a disclaimer in that regard. Now on to question one.
What are people’s thoughts on the dark side of the series and how they show this on their sims?
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 03:00 PM
I LOVE IT!
👍🏿 2
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[22] JakeSjet 09-Dec-17 03:00 PM
Seconded
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:00 PM
Properly used, the dark side of a sim is good.
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Moss 09-Dec-17 03:00 PM
Thirded!
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:01 PM
The problem is that.. I feel if you want darker elements you need to say "Do not use this element. Do not exceed this pont."
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Carde 09-Dec-17 03:01 PM
Stuff cannot be dark and grim enough for me
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[22] JakeSjet 09-Dec-17 03:01 PM
It also has cookies, let us not forget that
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RunLikeAZombie 09-Dec-17 03:01 PM
There's a seedier, edgy side to the lore that is just brilliant to mess around with.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 03:01 PM
I love cyberpunk for a reason 😃
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aio 09-Dec-17 03:01 PM
Im down for cookies.
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:01 PM
DS9 was where stuff just got real...and it was about time, lol
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 03:01 PM
@[22] JakeSjet and I are both on a less light simm
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:01 PM
Indeed, as long as there are places where people who don't want to do this can do so in peace, then places where the darker side can be explored are great, most of my favourite Trek stories at least hint at the darker side
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:01 PM
I think it's mostly my experience in that people don't really.. know when to stop to fit a mood?
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:01 PM
I like dark sides with consequences, stuff like section 31 not so much.
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 03:01 PM
ANd this is where I bow out for an hour... Star trek gaming is something I am not in at the mment
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:01 PM
if you allow darker content I want to see clear rules for how it's handled.
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[22] JakeSjet 09-Dec-17 03:01 PM
@Intumesce I assumed a dark light was being used
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:01 PM
so you need to make sure everyone is on the same page about what you wnat to do
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:01 PM
I LOVE Section 31.....shows that the Federation is more realistic then all that bubbly crap 😉
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 03:01 PM
Well, we mostly have night vision goggles...
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Raygi Benyan, CMO 09-Dec-17 03:02 PM
A dark side, properly balanced with lighter elements, is wonderful
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:02 PM
I find I really dislike Section 31.
Intensly.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 03:02 PM
Uch I really want to talk in this one, but I need to go to the shop 😦 😦 😦
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 03:02 PM
The concept of S31, and SFI in general appeal to me, because it mirrors the "good" of Picard
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:02 PM
I feel they are necessary myself
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:02 PM
It makes me think they could have made Starfleet Intelligence darker?
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[22] JakeSjet 09-Dec-17 03:02 PM
As an example I write for a character on the Odyessy, a BF sim, who could be considered...evil.
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:02 PM
does food call @Carde
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:02 PM
So they could have a gray side? But they didn't.
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[22] JakeSjet 09-Dec-17 03:02 PM
But lawful evil.
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CaptRavenfall 09-Dec-17 03:02 PM
On the ship Im Im Command of we are the dark horror ship and one of the first things as co is explain exactly what are
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:02 PM
I like the idea of covert and black ops, I dislike the idea of it being completely independent, and isolated as it is.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:02 PM
My entire universe is on the darker side of things. Battles, evil Q, some things that are really 18 plus... My writers and I wanted to show how people could still live even in the darkest edges of the hell that is war and covert operations.
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Viper 09-Dec-17 03:02 PM
In my eyes, there will always be the need for pragmatism in order to save idealism. I think that was a great underlying theme of DS9. I'm not a big fan of S31's implementation of it, but what we see with things like Starfleet Intelligence I find very interesting.
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:03 PM
An evil Q? I'm getting Ravenloft flashes
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[22] JakeSjet 09-Dec-17 03:03 PM
He's a scientist for whom the ends do justify the means, because they garner results. Yes those results come at the loss of standards, but the results work.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 03:03 PM
In short I want dark and grim and tons of it and above all I want the consequences and see pople write how loosing half a ships owrth of crew will scar their characters
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:03 PM
Oh, I just meant that if you allow mature content you want to specify both what content is allowed and how to mark it-e.g., noting things that are NSFW and so forth
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 03:03 PM
@[22] JakeSjet , he could've jsut a well worked on Delphi
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[22] JakeSjet 09-Dec-17 03:04 PM
He could but all of Benjie's work would be classfied for a hundred years. Benjie wants fortune and glory now.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 03:04 PM
I have written some seriously dark stuff on sims and RPs (and the research needed for that no doubt put me on quite some watch lists)
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:04 PM
(I play an intel officer so I 100% love intel, just not the section 31 style)
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:04 PM
Well something that is even focused on in my sim too is that even though so much horrible stuff happens the characters still manage to live their lives.
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Viper 09-Dec-17 03:05 PM
What I find frustrating about the "dark side" of Trek is how often times it starts to trend into either (a) super hero syndrome or (b) fails to capture the fact that it has to remain in the shadows.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:05 PM
Ok @everyone , I am conscious that we have two topics running side by side, so lets focus on one at a time. It would appear we all think there is a place for the dark side of things and conversation has turned to S31 quickly. So in that regard, Section 31: An important part of Starfleet or a ridiculous plot point?
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RunLikeAZombie 09-Dec-17 03:05 PM
I really like the character developments that come out of living through a dark patch, and the related downfall that comes with.
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Viper 09-Dec-17 03:05 PM
Ridiculous plot point
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:05 PM
... The second, but that's because I feel it could have been baked into SFI
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Viper 09-Dec-17 03:05 PM
in its implementation
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:05 PM
which would have made it more important
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Viper 09-Dec-17 03:05 PM
Totally agree with @Kylindra
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 03:06 PM
A point that you do something towards a player character without their permission to do so... that is a no-go on every front
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RunLikeAZombie 09-Dec-17 03:06 PM
Yeah same
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:06 PM
Well unless you have the players permission
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Raygi Benyan, CMO 09-Dec-17 03:06 PM
I say it could have been important.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:06 PM
having a characters permission is not really 100 percent required if you have the players consent
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:07 PM
section 31 is a ridiculous plot point and like...is not an approach to intel that works as a part of starfleet overall
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:07 PM
Ok @everyone lets stay on topic as best as possible. I have that down for a later topic. So does anyone think S31 was actually important in the grand scheme of things or would it have been easy to leave them out?
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:08 PM
Uh..
As written? Important
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Carde 09-Dec-17 03:08 PM
section 31 is so generic as hell could have been some much more
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aio 09-Dec-17 03:08 PM
I think it shows a part of Trek that no one figured would exist in the utopia the universe sits in
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:08 PM
I disagree, the Federation couldn't exist without something like Section 31
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:08 PM
But they could have probably written in a SFI role if hey wnated to
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Viper 09-Dec-17 03:08 PM
I think that Section 31 should have been rolled up into Starfleet Intelligence. There's plenty of room for clandestine work within Starfleet Intelligence without it having to be something that's so off book and unbelievable.
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Carde 09-Dec-17 03:08 PM
but would you need such behind the scenes stuff welll yeah -
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:08 PM
Have to admit, i did not even know it existed
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aio 09-Dec-17 03:09 PM
Agreed @Carde It was mediocre. But could have been much much more.
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[22] JakeSjet 09-Dec-17 03:09 PM
Someone has to prune the garden's of paradise.
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Viper 09-Dec-17 03:09 PM
S31 felt like a cheap move by the writers to create something clandestine without doing the work of explaining how it integrates into the greater Federation ecosystem - by instead just being like they're so uber secret no one knows about them.
A real loss of opportunity imo.
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:10 PM
Ok I will concede that point
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:10 PM
From the sounds of it there the sorth of thing everyone IC would just assume existed even if it was officialy denied
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[22] JakeSjet 09-Dec-17 03:10 PM
]Oh the story potential was there for something really interesting
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:10 PM
yeah. I also prefer the moral complexity of having some of that darker stuff be part of starfleet intel and therefore having a bit more of 'the systems' hands aren't completely clean' going on there.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:10 PM
Well people sit on the paradise bandwagon so much that yeah you needed something that was not all rainbows and butterflies but it could have been done better. I am personally of the opinion the Federation was no paradise.... It was like a 1984 style dystopia
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:10 PM
but SOMEBODY has to do the dirty work. You think the Tal SHiar are nice?
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:10 PM
"You are a good citizen all is well"
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:10 PM
Ok @everyone we will move on to the next question. So, DS9 saw combat become a big focus of Trek. So, what is the purpose of combat in simulations: Is there still a place for ‘Pew Pew’? Is a sim focused on combat a bad thing?
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aio 09-Dec-17 03:11 PM
I think if you have good writers, anyone can make any type of sim work.
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:11 PM
I don't think its a matter of good or bad.
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:11 PM
I don't know that its' a bad thing, but it's not what I'm interested in Trek for.
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:11 PM
combat isn't bad
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:11 PM
It's just another facet of writing, just as important as any other scenario
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:11 PM
There are those who prefer more martial sims.
Some don't.
There is a place for both.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:12 PM
Nothing is good or bad in that respect; its all what the writers like... Appealing to other audiences is really the thing.
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:12 PM
Combat will be important in a Sim even if it isn't common. It's a centeral focus of drama and tension, a momment of high stakes adrenaline. Plus when dealing with other cultures and nations almost inevitable at some points. Peace is not allways possible
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[RPGW] beeman 09-Dec-17 03:12 PM
I think it's important to sim it correctly like @aio alluded to, yet it's also important to focus on the non-combat roles as everyone has a role in any situation, including combat
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:12 PM
I lean martial but exploration is cool too....a mix is ideal for me I guess
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Dec-17 03:12 PM
Section 31 is abhorrent to what the Federation was supposed to be about
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Raygi Benyan, CMO 09-Dec-17 03:12 PM
If the sim is set in a time of war, then definitely. Or if the mission profile is more tactical in nature.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Dec-17 03:12 PM
Picard's speech about constant vigilance was enough
about trying to make sure people like Satie don't corrupt the Federation
but then we had to establish that the Federation is rotten...
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:13 PM
For most people @Darkhorse/Dave. Based on my 20+ years experience.
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:13 PM
Constant vigilance will only get you so far I'm afraid
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Dec-17 03:13 PM
I don't think it was necessary
The Federation and utopia is one of the few things that makes Star Trek unique
yes if youre a cynic it's hokey but then there's plenty of other sci fi out there with utopias that are actually dystopias
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:14 PM
@[22] Teix I am an old line grunt, a nerdy one, but still a front liner (Cavalry Scout) so I might be biased
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:14 PM
I prefe a more balanced sim, though I do lean exploration/science.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Dec-17 03:14 PM
it's just part of the premise of Star Trek that the Federation is a union for good
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aio 09-Dec-17 03:14 PM
balanced is always good
but its getting that balance right, so that you dont lose writers who want more combat, during the non-combat type missions.
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:14 PM
And it is @Rahman...you just need to do dirty things at times
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:15 PM
True but any paradise needs a devilish guard dog somewhere. Ultimately, if no one is ever willing to play down and dirty but your foe is, your foe wins
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:15 PM
^^^^^This
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:15 PM
I would contend @aio, that its more about being clear about wht the sim is going to be so that you don't end up with a crew full of warmongers when you want to focus on science.
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aio 09-Dec-17 03:16 PM
I can see that point.
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:17 PM
eh. There's a point to @Rahman 's idea
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aio 09-Dec-17 03:17 PM
If you set out to be a science focused sim, you should be clear about it at the onset, and not kick it off with a military mission.
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Dec-17 03:17 PM
moving on to the next topic though, yes definitely can be appropriate for pew pew. People always say Picard was a diplomat but he wasn't above using force when necessary for instance
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:17 PM
Exactly.
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:17 PM
Namely, you can get dark and combaty, but you should keep in mind the overarching theme
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:17 PM
Lol I just realized this debate about clandestine is probably very similar with what would've happened with the Federation Council.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:18 PM
I see Starfleet as peacekeepers. But, even peacekeepers have to fight from time to time.
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:18 PM
Outside of a wartime timeline, I tend to use cambat as one aspect of an otherwise not martial mission.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:18 PM
You have to fight to keep the peace, whether that is with words or weapons.
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:18 PM
Most of the time, at least.
Exploration focesed sims can still see combat. Science ones too.
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:19 PM
I've done peacekeeping duty....it sucks...nobody likes you and the place is usually shot to hell 😉
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:19 PM
Indeed.
To both
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:19 PM
@[22] Teix Yeah, not everybody is friendly out there
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:19 PM
And I tend to find those combat stories the more interesting ones. A ship on a science mission finds itself having to fight off whatever hostile they encounter.
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:20 PM
Also, any diplomatc type RP will allways have the possibility of comabt. For when it all goes wrong
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:20 PM
Cowboy diplomacy
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aio 09-Dec-17 03:20 PM
@[22] Teix thats where good writing comes in.
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 03:20 PM
In the end it's a good thing we have teeth.
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:20 PM
Absolutely @aio
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:20 PM
or gunboat diplomacy
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aio 09-Dec-17 03:20 PM
If someone can, without going magical, metagaming and mary sue, be on a science vessell and be outnumbered, outgunned and write themselves out of it, bam, you got it.
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Intumesce 09-Dec-17 03:21 PM
Secret Slipstream Drive installed by S31
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:21 PM
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:21 PM
calm, calm
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:21 PM
Lol
Ok @everyone Can a 16+, or even a 13+ rated sim still demonstrate the dark side of things? Is there even a place for the dark side of things on those types of sims? What advice would you give to a 13+ sim GM wanting to still show the dark side of Trek?
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:23 PM
Are we defining "dark side" as combat? If so, then yes.
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:24 PM
Sure it can....war in space is very clean. Doesn't have to be blood and guts
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:24 PM
for a 13 plus it's all hinting. Hints can sometimes be worse than full descriptions because your imagination knows just how to get to you
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:24 PM
I mean, that's literally the rating for a lot of the series and you still get occasional strong language, war, and serious social issues.
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:24 PM
Here's the thing, a good writer can manage a lot.
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RaWolfe 09-Dec-17 03:24 PM
Personally it is difficult to show the darker side of Trek in a PG13 group as you are bound to certain rules that applies towards the younger generation. It would kinda be showing a war movie with lots of gore on Fox Kids
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:25 PM
Say for instance a violent interogation. On a 13 plus you could just describe someone walking into a room looking fine, then walking out with some brusies and a thousand yard stare. Your brain does the rest (edited)
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:25 PM
PG-13 is a very.. very fluid rating I find
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:25 PM
Again, it depends on what we're calling "dark side"
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:25 PM
You can generally work within it, though
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 03:26 PM
Its what you call the fade to black scenario guys.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:26 PM
The torture of Picard for example in Chain of Command
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:26 PM
yeah, PG-13 allows for some sexual stuff, certain sorts of nudity, brief strong language
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CaptRavenfall 09-Dec-17 03:26 PM
Star-fleet does it all the time with a pg-13 rating
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:26 PM
Oh the "there are 4 lights" one. Brilliant
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:26 PM
We started by talking about DS9/Dominion War. We saw a war play out.
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:26 PM
Look you don't have to get into criminal stuff or sex, but the criminal aspect would make an interesting adult story arc
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:28 PM
Generally, I prefer using the RPG Rating system for this though
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[RPGW] beeman 09-Dec-17 03:28 PM
I would say yes. I feel like the rating increase only determines how graphic/sexual the writing can be. There are various ways in which evil can be portrayed without having to give gritty and graphic details.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:28 PM
An excellent tool @Kylindra
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 03:28 PM
Dark Horse you can get into those scenarios mate in a PG13 game... you just have to get creative with how you address it... If you want to do something more involved change the age of requirement rule and find sims for players under that age to go to. If they don't want to do that say thanks but you are no longer needed.
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:29 PM
I think with pg13 RP's the biggest issue is what happens to PC's. In an 18 plus your signing up for almost anything. But in a 13 plus, whilst it may be okay to do a fade to black on an NPC you would really need to clear it with a PC first on a younger one. Some people don't want to RP a trauma victim, and on a 13 plus they should have that choice. On an 18 though, anything goes
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 03:29 PM
As a gm you have a right to move the gosl posts at any point.
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:29 PM
Perhaps, I'm now shrinking violet and I personally believe if someone is old enough to ask the question they are old enough to hear the answer...of course I'm a d#$K, lol@Skoll
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:30 PM
Personally, I prefer a more permissive rating because graphic sex/violence/etc doesn't bother me. Unfortunately, too many players go into those situations and focus only on the sex or violence and the sim turns into a shitty third-rate movie.
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:30 PM
I honestly feel you should tell people.
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:30 PM
I wouldn't say that 18+ is inherently everything goes, a lot of them that I've played with have more explicit rules so that people can specifically play out only the darker content they're interested in
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:30 PM
Well that can be applied to anything. even in 18 plus games you dont want to step on peoples rights
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:30 PM
It just leads to irritation and upset if they signed up for something and then it changed
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:30 PM
if they say no I dont want this happening to my char
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:30 PM
Better they know at the start.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:30 PM
Right @everyone the next question I have is do we really have a need for 18+ sims? What do you expect from an 18+ sim?
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:30 PM
and avoid stuff they don't want to play through or read.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:30 PM
you have ot abide by that in most cases
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:30 PM
I think that whilst a GM may have that power it should be exercised very carefully on a 13 plus one. People may not have signed up for that on a 13 plus
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 03:31 PM
In an 18+ RP I expect fucking to occur.
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:31 PM
@[TNU]Atsumari Of course, that's why you dicuss such action offline first
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:31 PM
For 18+ it really up to who your players are
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:31 PM
eh. 18+ sims are OK?
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:31 PM
I always consider that no content restricts at all
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:31 PM
I don't join them. So I don't expect anything
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:31 PM
Some people approve and have 18+ sims, yes
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:31 PM
if your community wants to do it allow them to do it unless it violates a PLAYERS
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[SB118] Rahman 09-Dec-17 03:31 PM
I personally don't see the point for most simming, but everyone has their own tastes
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Leam-Mark 09-Dec-17 03:31 PM
I generally avoid the +15 and +18 simulations, especially the +18 sims. I find that when you say +18, all you are going to read is sex, drugs and everything that would be in an R-rated film. That for me, is something I dont want to involve myself in.
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Hank Elrod 09-Dec-17 03:31 PM
Darkhorse said "I've done peacekeeping duty....it sucks...nobody likes you and the place is usually shot to hell "....that would make a good mission idea...a situation where Starfleet has to be there, but their not exactly welcomed by the inhabitants...You have situations where some combat mat occur, but also the crew's ability to do diplomacy is also tested ...Kindness amid strife.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:31 PM
personal boundaries
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Kylindra 09-Dec-17 03:31 PM
(to be clear, I expect 18+ sims to be allow all; deny <this>)
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:31 PM
there are specifically forum setups for 18+ ratings to have it follow the rules.
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:31 PM
@Hank Elrod Bosnia '99
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STF,RAdmSalmon 09-Dec-17 03:32 PM
in Star-fleet, we're strictly PG-13
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:32 PM
most 18+ stuff I've seen allows most but asks that certain things be marked or discussed first
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 03:32 PM
Yes Kai 18+ sites are needed TBIL is eighteen rated... mainly because I have a tendency to do some particularly nasty things to pcs and npc's... running human fire balls... torturing pcs just because you can and the like so yes 18+ sites work well if the gm is creative and the players are game for anything
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:32 PM
I like the option to explore more "adult" material but I don't want the sim to just be people trying to push the most graphic content they can think of. And not focusing on the core of the story.
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 03:32 PM
In my forum, we have both 18+ and non-18+ forums. The regular forums are public-facing and the adult ones are restricted - you have to sign up to see them.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:33 PM
We do it by player pref anyone who joings my group must be 18
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Darkhorse/Dave 09-Dec-17 03:33 PM
@[SARP] Wes That's pretty much the way it should be done in imo
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:33 PM
but if they dont want to write 18 plus we just let them not do it
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[SARP] Wes 09-Dec-17 03:33 PM
It's notable we have some plots that go for 18+ status just to be unrestricted or for EXTREME VIOLENCE AND GORE (edited)
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Skoll 09-Dec-17 03:33 PM
If you use jcink forums which I do, you have to be fairly careful with content... we still have rules we have to follow with regards to content
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:33 PM
does not mean we wont write torture and stuff just that player will be less invovled in tht part
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Viper 09-Dec-17 03:34 PM
Personally, I'm not a fan of 18+, but that's tainted by the 18+ that are basically smut-writing even though the vast majority of 18+ aren't that.
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:34 PM
And wont be forced to see it or be it's victim if they don't want to be @[TNU]Atsumari (edited)
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:34 PM
Exactly
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:35 PM
funnily enough most everywhere I played that was 18+ didn't have much smut, just an older player base than a lot of the 13+ sites
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:35 PM
see everyone assumes 18+ is you HAVE TO watch porn and death
thats not why we have that rating at all
its just an understanding between our players this MIGHT happen
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:35 PM
No no, just that it could happen
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:35 PM
Correct @[TNU]Atsumari
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:35 PM
18 plus to me is just a warning that stuff COULD get messy, not that it will and as such, people need to be ready for that when joining. (edited)
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:35 PM
if you dont want to take part in that you dont have to
we will give your character something else to do
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Sepandiyar 09-Dec-17 03:36 PM
We have specific rules on that. Blood, gore, violence. Yes. Sex with vivid descriptions beyond 'he closed the door' and you're out. This is Trek simming, not Debbie Does Romulus
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:36 PM
Unfortunately, many of us have experienced the people who join 18+ sims so they can just write porn.
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Viper 09-Dec-17 03:36 PM
On my sim, our support for mature subject material and violence is on the high end of 16+, but our support for sexual content is basically 13+. So like I'm down with 18+ but I just hate anything sex-oriented in the writing personally.
I agree with @Sepandiyar
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:36 PM
In the best 18 plus games nothing to gorry or distrubing will happen for a long time. But when it does ocassionaly happen it's impactful as a result. Too much just becomes trite
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Sepandiyar 09-Dec-17 03:36 PM
It's rule #1 - NO SMUT lol
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:36 PM
yes @[22] Teix
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goldun 09-Dec-17 03:36 PM
Very good rule
No need for it in quality writing
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:37 PM
though honestly if I want to write a graphic porn novel that si what ERP sites are for
sure my sim has it and it does happen a lot more than say other sims
but still its not just existing to write porn
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aio 09-Dec-17 03:37 PM
Im 100% with JonM. I think even the mention of 18+ implies much more.
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Sepandiyar 09-Dec-17 03:37 PM
I just don't find it necessary for the story. You can have sex/relationships without being gory in the details
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:37 PM
I find the idea that sexual content is inherently poor writing rather ridiculous, but that doesn't mean that every site needs to allow or cater to it either.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:38 PM
Ok then, with 20 minutes to go I have my last question and then I will throw the floor open to you all. Just a warning, lets avoid anything massively graphic and avoid swearing if at all possible.
What is the darkest event one of your main characters endured?
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:38 PM
Sometiems it provides a good soundboard for character development
but everyone will have their own opinion on the matter
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Viper 09-Dec-17 03:38 PM
Growing up on Turkana IV and then being sold into slavery
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:38 PM
some people just dont like their sex mixed with their writing
and if they dont then thats completely fine
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Viper 09-Dec-17 03:39 PM
@[TNU]Atsumari I don't like writing sexualized content mostly because I'm married and it just doesn't feel proper in my eyes 😛
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[22] Teix 09-Dec-17 03:39 PM
I had a character who, graphically, killed someone. With their bare hands. Matter of survival kind of thing.
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:39 PM
Many years ago my chrachter was almost killed by thier own adoptive daughter (she thought she had killed him) it was very tastefully done and RPing the after effects were amazing
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:39 PM
See that right there
characters fighting for their lives you cant probably write that non 19 plus if you want the reader to 100 percent understand you WILL die and feel what hte character is feeling unless you are like a Stephen king level writer
some can do it but others need the filter off
for that to happen
so all in all its really a judgment call between the GMs and their writers
on what it is to be a consenting human
do you want this or do you not
if you dont we wont do it
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:41 PM
I've had two: In the past, I had my character (then CO) tied up and held hostage, forced to watch as the symbiont from a trill member of the crew was brutally removed and had to watch the host die. Secondly, I had a character try to commit suicide during a massive character development arc on an old sim.
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Phoenix Lalor 09-Dec-17 03:41 PM
As a Co of an 18+ sim I can honestly say there is not much Smut and i have a policy for my players around it
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Viper 09-Dec-17 03:42 PM
@[GEC] Kai1701E we did a suicide arc maybe five years ago too. Really dark but really amazing quality writing.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:42 PM
my primarily character and CO of the Lavie; she was suicidal at one point and its a very sensitive topic for her.
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:42 PM
I find the best part of any Dark event isn't the physical actions, it's the fun you get to have with emotional and psychological reactions
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:42 PM
We did it on Kovar, it brought everyone together and by god, the writing and the emotion
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Carde 09-Dec-17 03:43 PM
I only run 18+ sims, I want that freedom, but I ask people to keep smut only in there if it is a critical part to a story line, everything needs to have a reason
As a result I see very little of it in all those years.
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:43 PM
yeah, I have a character with long-term psychological issues from her childhood and while she's not very obvious about it most of the time it is 100% still a factor for her character.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:44 PM
and this what we are jumping into is again as I said awhile ago you have to have your community's consent
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Carde 09-Dec-17 03:44 PM
As for dark events I have had quite a few, would not know which to pick, but horrible things have happened.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:44 PM
just becuase you are 19 plus does not give you the right to assault your players
so its all a constatnt communication peice for anything over a certain line
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:45 PM
So, just communicate? Then everything should be ok?
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:45 PM
thats how I have always done it
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Carde 09-Dec-17 03:45 PM
And make sure people understand
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:45 PM
and all my writers hve never had issues
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:45 PM
Indeed.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:45 PM
the ones who do not want 18 or above content
we just give them seperate things
and keep them away from the stuff they do not want to see
not saying we make a seperate story either
they just have things they focus on
so they dont have to partake
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:46 PM
So, with all this in mind, my last question is actually this: If there was one thing you would NEVER involve your character in, what would it be?
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Carde 09-Dec-17 03:47 PM
Rape
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:47 PM
^
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Edgeford 09-Dec-17 03:47 PM
Rape. Just no, red line, no. Fade to black for that perhaps but never described.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:47 PM
graphic sexual abuse; that really does draw a line
thats morally and ethically unacceptable
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Viper 09-Dec-17 03:48 PM
Agreed with graphic sexual abuse / rape. Not a topic I want to write, and one that could easily trigger horrible emotions in my writers and readers.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:48 PM
That exactly @Viper
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Carde 09-Dec-17 03:48 PM
I mean yes there are a rare few story arcs that could require it, but 99.999% of the time an other traumatic event can get the same results and for the other times find an other story arc to write.
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[GEC] Kai1701E 09-Dec-17 03:49 PM
Excellent, seems quite a consensus there then. So, now, I open the floor to you guys.
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Narica 09-Dec-17 03:49 PM
yeah, I've seen a lot of people be awful about sexual abuse. Is why I a-always asked that it be marked when I ran stuff, and b-wasn't going to accept people who didn't want to follow that one rule.
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[TNU]Atsumari 09-Dec-17 03:49 PM
If someone starts doing that we will warn them
after that I personally will ask them to leave
we are a writing group not writers of snuff porn
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aio 09-Dec-17 03:50 PM
10 minutes gang.
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