SciWorld / FallFest

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:16 PM

Opens door

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 12:16 PM

runs in to hog the best seats

MaidenInsider 15-Dec-18 12:17 PM

“Dibs on the ceiling!”

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:30 PM

Hello there world; our first session is discussions about differing technology, developing it and basically bouncing off things from each other... so I am basically just facilitating discussion on the topic since the person who was running it is not here... Anyone want to start? There is no particular theme...

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 12:30 PM

is this real life tech, or in game tech?

Uso 15-Dec-18 12:30 PM

I can jump in: What resources do you guys use for technology? I've been trying to put together a small list that I can show to people but I tend to just link to more 'real science' websites like atomic rockets.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:32 PM

In game; basically a discussion about role playing tech in our universes... thanks for that Uso... So in the TNU universe we have a lot of custom tech; some people would even consider magic because it is so far past trek time that like... there is a quote for this; I am paraphrasing but basically at a certain point sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. (edited)

The thing with connecting real to this is that honestly you have to... people have to have some frame of reference. You can't use what you dont understand. (edited)

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 12:34 PM

The good thing about Trek is that you can use an awful lot of technobabble to cover up the magic feel. As long as it makes vague sense, and the violations of known phyiscs are fairly consistent, its easy to sound canon

even when you're making up on the fly

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:35 PM

True and we do do that

Tugar 15-Dec-18 12:35 PM

We have a WIKI as well, basic stuff is there and we are always adding.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:35 PM

Though another question with that is how do you make it seem more like understandable...

<°°> Yoda 15-Dec-18 12:36 PM

The trouble with Trek is that it tends to sound ridiculous. I mean, what even are 'tachyon beams' and 'static warp fields'?

Oh hi Ame, yes it's me

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:36 PM

If your just throwing words out there and making it up; how do you make sense of it... and there is that question too that @<°°> Yoda just mentioned standardization in role playing in this sense....

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 12:37 PM

I usually begin with treknobabble and then leave a tag for someone else to ask for normal terms.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:37 PM

Like; you can only sound so far off or so unrelatable before it just gets lost or becomes meaningless... so how do you guys handle that?

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 12:37 PM

That way everyone understands.

<°°> Yoda 15-Dec-18 12:38 PM

Although there must be a balance between scientific propability and what makes things 'fun' and not 'impossible'

Tugar 15-Dec-18 12:38 PM

@<°°> Yoda agreed. I hate when things get UBER.

1

Jme 15-Dec-18 12:39 PM

I find this is why the rank system out of character works well in a Star Trek based game - usually your higher ranked characters through roleplaying and experience have a better concept of how to build realistic tech and have the solutions to problems make sense. And sometimes they have to reign in an enthusiastic newcomer who wants to push tech into the realm of magic

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 12:39 PM

well to take your example, tachyons are a real scientif term, though their existence is entirely theoretical, so when you make a beam, it sounds plausible enough. Its mixng in enough real terms to make sense. And for that, all you really need is wikipedia

though real physicists in your player base may wince a lot

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 12:40 PM

Rank doesn't always translate to experience though. I can't tell you how many new players I've seen want to come in as an XO and possess little knowledge of how to RP.

<°°> Yoda 15-Dec-18 12:40 PM

I only remember them from the final episode of TNG where the accidentally used Tachyon Beams to destroy time

Jme 15-Dec-18 12:40 PM

Well, that's assuming you're playing a game where new players can come in at any rank! (yikes)

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 12:40 PM

One thing I do like about the Trek Universe is that there is plenty of canon from which to build upon. Kinda like a solid foundation, allowing the players to modify it slowly to make reasonable advances.

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 12:40 PM

Don't all new people start as Ensigns @[22] greenfelt22?

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:41 PM

Depends on the game, rules ect

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 12:41 PM

@Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] it depends on the sim or organization.

Neathler 15-Dec-18 12:41 PM

Pholin - not in other fleets

1

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 12:41 PM

But in yours I mean.

Jme 15-Dec-18 12:41 PM

Tech needs to uphold the suspension of disbelief.

<°°> Yoda 15-Dec-18 12:41 PM

The thing is, Warp is actually a technology that is feasible, according to NASA.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:41 PM

True but it still has to be understandable

Tugar 15-Dec-18 12:41 PM

If you have a small sim/ship. Is the Chief Medical Officer going to be an Ensign?

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:42 PM

its like in the TNU story we use gems that emit like energy but its based on physics

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 12:42 PM

I've started people as high as Lieutenant (within reason). But we might have to take that side convo to another room to not disrupt the main convo here.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:42 PM

even though people dismiss it as magic

Uso 15-Dec-18 12:42 PM

Your Chief Medical Officer can be an Ensign.

<°°> Yoda 15-Dec-18 12:42 PM

So as opposed to Star Wars and Galactica, Warp is the only FTL method that has been proven to work within science, specifically Relativity

Uso 15-Dec-18 12:42 PM

You just have to get all the higher ranked medical officers killed off

Call that "The Voyager"

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 12:42 PM

Has it been proven or is it deemed likely?

Camila 15-Dec-18 12:43 PM

I have a Chief Engineer that's a Master Chief Petty Officer

<°°> Yoda 15-Dec-18 12:43 PM

It is deemed feasible

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:43 PM

my first CENG character that I played was a provsional ensign and before that a civilian

Jme 15-Dec-18 12:44 PM

Maybe we can move rank discussion to #other ?

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 12:44 PM

I've got it going in #char-dev, @Jme

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:44 PM

True

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 12:44 PM

The rank discussion that is.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:45 PM

Tech is here.... so continuing on that vein though... and pouncing on our non-trek friends here... how do you guys explain new technologies in your stories?

Camila 15-Dec-18 12:46 PM

You have them create it from research that you've done and present it to them OOC and go over it, then have them make it IC.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:47 PM

So again that goes back to my past statement that it needs to be relatable

Uso 15-Dec-18 12:47 PM

Either its a magic system that is described before hand (Or not, if I want to have fun letting players try to figure it out) or Tech is realistic enough that the players can expect it will work like the real-life version of whatever it is they are using. A warp drive is like any other drive: You can expect it requires a lot of power to work, control systems, etc.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 12:48 PM

I'm not sure it needs to be relatable. But it definitely nees to be consistent

aio 15-Dec-18 12:49 PM

Consistency is one of those things everything needs to be, imo.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 12:49 PM

you might not know how your FTL drive works, but as long as it always works the same way, thats probably more useful

aio 15-Dec-18 12:49 PM

The good thing about Trek sims is that everyone has seen various incarnations of Trek, and go to any of the big fleets, and certain technologies are going to be basically the same.

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 12:49 PM

Consistency is key indeed. Therefore I love that SB118 keeps everything neat in a wiki.

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 12:50 PM

^

Tugar 15-Dec-18 12:50 PM

and don't go overboard overexplaining and overcomplicating.

Camila 15-Dec-18 12:50 PM

Let's take the tricorder for instance. Most people can go to Memory Alpha to get an idea of what they are. Then say you want to expand on it. Find or create an image based on your idea and then set the capabilities on it. For this example, I'll share this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1o6sMud38mCmjVHSGglTOBDJeAjLxJAR-kBE_et1Dh-o/edit?usp=sharing And remember, this is my intellectual property, so please don't steal it without asking for my permission.

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 12:50 PM

I think even with magic there needs to be some rules governing it for consistency of the story narrative. Often quoted is Sanderson's rules of magic

https://youtu.be/jXAcA_y3l6M From his lecture when people have the time.

Camera Panda

Brandon Sanderson - 318R - #8 (Magic Systems)

Brand new for 2016 are Brandon Sanderson's writing lectures at BYU. This lecture was delivered on March 3, 2016. Filmed by Jon Deering and Earl Cahill, edite...

GinaC 15-Dec-18 12:52 PM

Personally, with new tech, I try to find stuff from today that can be innovated or expanded upon by combining it with other tech.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:52 PM

that is how tech is usually developed to be honest

look at cell phones.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 12:53 PM

Exactly. It's definitely a more realistic way to manage tech in our sims too.

I know not everyone is a tech guru, but it helps.

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 12:54 PM

Take into consideration that the early tech of old media is now a reality. The Dick Tracy wrist video phones are more of a reality today. Video calls are a thing now.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 12:54 PM

How do people resolve the issue of wanting to be cannon compliant, when they may be playing in the 2390s ?

Uso 15-Dec-18 12:55 PM

Style Choices: That's how Star Trek has been justifying it.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:55 PM

I dont actually have that issue as my story is in 4566

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 12:55 PM

its not really come up on my sim, but I can imagine that its very easy to go running off on a complete tangent

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 12:55 PM

There's actually tech out there today where you can have a wrist attachment and a glowing layout of a phone appears on your wrist and it works as an actual phone. (edited)

Uso 15-Dec-18 12:55 PM

Handheld communicators with far less functionality than a modern cell phone don't make sense to have in the future... unless it is for style.

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 12:55 PM

Most of the time we start with canon and think, what could have happened in twenty years? (edited)

GinaC 15-Dec-18 12:55 PM

I know with our group, we have an overhead admin team that looks at a proposal to adapt new stuff and votes on it

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 12:55 PM

4566

So you have timeships?

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 12:56 PM

Only for the big advancements, right Lael?

GinaC 15-Dec-18 12:56 PM

Like adapting a new series or movie in general, for example, yes.

Deciding if Discovery will be canon for our group for example.

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 12:56 PM

A heated discussion, yes.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:57 PM

that is a good thing to question; what is canon but that should be another discussion

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 12:57 PM

I mean there could be different races of klingons where they look like the ones on Discovery.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 12:57 PM

we are focusing on the technological aspects right now (edited)

GinaC 15-Dec-18 12:57 PM

True.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 12:58 PM

Kind of like how the Reman are a subspecies of Romulans which are a subspecies of Vulcans (edited)

GinaC 15-Dec-18 12:58 PM

In that case...one thing that our group does to encourage that is journals for engineering and science. This kind of helps focus the pros and cons and the exact nature of a tech.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 12:59 PM

I'm still learning the concept of that.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:00 PM

that sounds like a good idea

plus you can explain the finer details of your scienst stuff

so it makes sense to people who care to know about that topic

or item

Uso 15-Dec-18 01:01 PM

https://shattered-universe.com/doku.php?id=guide:scifiresources <-- Here is my list of 'explaining science stuff'

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 01:01 PM

Working in 2390s, I believe a proper scale/progression of modern science against the established canon is a good approach.

Uso 15-Dec-18 01:01 PM

If you haven't seen Tech Ingredients yet, you may want to check it out. That guy does a good job explaining the how and why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P3tbf3JHhc

Tech Ingredients

Lunar Warfare - Lasers or Projectiles?

I present some thoughts about the weapons that might be used on the moon. The vacuum and low gravity could make the moon the ultimate military high-ground in...

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:01 PM

SCIENCE

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:02 PM

TNU needs a wiki coordinator

rip me...

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:02 PM

I play a Denobulan scientist on 118

https://wiki.starbase118.net/wiki/index.php?title=German_Galven

Index.php?title=German Galven

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 01:02 PM

For example, holographic projections. Most of TNG/DS9/VOY utilized regular screens for communication when Season 1 of TNG established that there were indeed an abundance of small holoprojectors everywhere. The only reason why it was shelved was due to high post-production costs.

Real life cost-cutting measures for the win!

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 01:03 PM

Exactly. A whole lot of scientists from SB118 are having a conference. We decided that twenty years after the Defiant holocommunicator, a conference with everyone chiming in on a holodeck from their own ship would be a good progression! (edited)

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 01:03 PM

I personally don't mind having holo-projections more commonplace in my sims because, hey, production costs aren't a problem with written words!

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 01:03 PM

What can be fun is roleplaying the in character development of new technologies or experimenting with things that don't necessarily fit or work.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:04 PM

It's a sim that we're doing in between sims. I made it to where it's the last on people's list of things to do so they can focus more on their storylines within their ships.

Camila 15-Dec-18 01:04 PM

I use holographic stations instead of physical ones. No exploding panel to take out my crew.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:04 PM

our ship AIs in my far future tech actually use those to travel throughout the ship

1

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 01:04 PM

No stones on the bridge?!?

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:05 PM

explain @Josh [TNU]

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:05 PM

so basically holo projectors are everywhere already so the computer of the ship which has an AI support core this far in the future which is basically like an ECH.

and in our case before they implanted her mind into a cyborg human body she would use those emitters to be basically anywehere the crew needed her.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:06 PM

Must be a lot of work for your engineers

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:06 PM

yeah; maintaining all those holographic systems is a pain

plus it takes a lot of power

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 01:07 PM

I'd assume so.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:07 PM

I would imagine so

TheeFlamehead 15-Dec-18 01:07 PM

Could be a fun storyline, to mess with the system

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:07 PM

Which would be great for German since he's all over the place anyways lol

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:08 PM

im always up for it becuase Lumiere the AI character whom uses those; even though shes in a cyborg body now she is still connected to her ship "body"

so like if there is a power failure or her AI is damaged; she "feels"

that

its an interesting technological concept

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:08 PM

So when the ship gets attacked the AI feels it

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:08 PM

connecting a computer with a person

Camila 15-Dec-18 01:09 PM

Sounds like Farscape

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:09 PM

but as AI advances it could happen

and she woudnt feel the attack as the ships not like skin

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 01:09 PM

Technology should be adding dimension to the stories you are telling. Even in super science, I have found that technology failures allow for more interesting storylines

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:09 PM

ture

like in one instance Lumi has learned to like become more reliant on her corporeal body

due to the limitations of her ship AI self

and because its safer

she owuldnt "die" due ot a power failure

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:10 PM

What about tricorders in your future? I created an ocular device that is like one, but hands free. It does everything a tricorder does, plus more through science

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 01:10 PM

Your AI being afraid of dying would add a sense of humanity too.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:10 PM

tricorders are in the VX implant that people have

https://tnu.wikia.com/wiki/VX_Armor

VX Armor

VX or its variant VC armor is a implant developed by Lonhorn Corporation and Arvonus Corporation's Weapons Division. The armor provides protection from laser weapons, provides live sustaining...

Uso 15-Dec-18 01:11 PM

I think the future is to not have a device. Rather than wearables or handhelds, your technology is already integrated into your surroundings so you don't need to carry anything.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:11 PM

exactly

there is an implant that does all of those

they dont need physical tricorders anymore

Uso 15-Dec-18 01:12 PM

Where we're going, we don't NEED tricorders....

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:12 PM

^

Camila 15-Dec-18 01:12 PM

@enterDanement check out the link I posted earlier

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 01:12 PM

The pay implants are here. Amazon now has stores that don't require physical interactions to pay for things. So things to consider

Our reality is starting to out pace our fantasy

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:13 PM

@Camila you'll have to DM me the link. There's so much text in here I wouldn't be able to find it

Camila 15-Dec-18 01:13 PM

Can do

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:14 PM

That looks so cool!

TheeFlamehead 15-Dec-18 01:14 PM

I know both Discovery has established transponders in suits/uniforms, and TNG/VOY/DS9 has lifesign tracking. Have you felt the need to limit these technologies for a storyline, and if so, how?

Uso 15-Dec-18 01:15 PM

I don't think implants are going to be the future. The future is big data... or more specifically 'point of sale AI approved loans' You don't have to carry a phone, wallet, or anything. A service provider will just give you a loan to buy stuff on the spot based on your credit history at a rate similar to a credit card.

Camila 15-Dec-18 01:15 PM

Geordi's eyes disprove that, @Uso

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:15 PM

we use peoples VX and lifesign scanning through like DNA comparisons ect

though we have a clone of someone and that is proving hard since like... shes exactly like her other self

so the system can only tell her apart by her VX

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 01:16 PM

Not so much limit it, but the tracking aspects are linked to comm badges. that can get lost or damaged as needed by plot

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:16 PM

I'm surprised by the amount of moving we do that comm badges don't fall off cause you can simply take it off

Uso 15-Dec-18 01:16 PM

@Camila Geordi's eyes did go from wearables to implants. And if the federation had a more progressive look on transhumanism, Geordi likely wouldn't need either.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:18 PM

VX has the com in your had so in my universe we dont use com badges anymore

unless someone's implant is removed for whatever reason and even then its like a watch or something.

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 01:18 PM

@Uso China is moving to a social credit system. So things are definitely changing towards a stranger sci-fi future. https://www.businessinsider.com/china-social-credit-system-punishments-and-rewards-explained-2018-4

China has started ranking citizens with a creepy 'social credit' s...

Chinese people are being introduced to a scheme that monitors their behaviour, scores them, and doles out punishments and rewards.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:19 PM

I'd rather have the watch honestly cause so much is going on in my character's head anyways that it'd be even more distracting

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 01:19 PM

^

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 01:20 PM

That reminds me a bit of that Orville episode.

Uso 15-Dec-18 01:20 PM

That does beg the question of how much your tech gets into your character's head? If it can send your brain messages, can it also read from your brain to send messages? If it can read from your brain, is there some algorithm monitoring you for thought-crime? (edited)

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 01:20 PM

Your social "credit" was on a badge, and it became connected to a judicial/corrections system and a form of racism.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:20 PM

heh

that episoe

*episode

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 01:20 PM

Still have to watch the Orville

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 01:21 PM

encourages everyone to NOT have the Orville/Discovery comparisons/bashes in the Panel Rooms

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:21 PM

in that Voyager episode where Neelix gets his lungs removed by an advanced tricorder. What is that called?

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:21 PM

lol

aio 15-Dec-18 01:22 PM

Phage

@enterDanement

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 01:22 PM

at what point does changing, advancing your tech change the genre?

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:22 PM

I meant what is the tricorder doing and called

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 01:22 PM

e.g. going down the line of implants and cybernetics take it from trek style sci-fi, to cyberpunk

Uso 15-Dec-18 01:23 PM

When the tech becomes an important part of the story.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:23 PM

that's any story. Any well written story

Uso 15-Dec-18 01:23 PM

Story: Trying to get the McGuffin

Cyberpunk Story: Trying to get the McGuffin from inside someone's head because its an implant!

Generally the genre will have in its definition how technology has to be a part of the story.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:25 PM

Alrighty folks; so it is almost time for the next sessions; thing we ae going to need an overflow or are we good here?

GinaC 15-Dec-18 01:25 PM

Tech shouldn't be the focus IMO. It should always be relationships and character development.

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 01:25 PM

Tech can evolve your setting. Too many implants can make a compelling story about retaining your humanity before being subsumed by something like the Borg.

Uso 15-Dec-18 01:26 PM

Technology can be the focus, and there are certainly great stories told about the relationships between man and machine. Some stories are entirely focused on the technology like "the Martian"

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:26 PM

tech i sa plot device

the story is aobut the characters

tech just enchances your story

GinaC 15-Dec-18 01:27 PM

Thank you @Josh [TNU]

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:27 PM

even if its focused on tech its still about the people

its just... more or less about ht etech

dependong on the story

its still just a device

Anyway overflow; yes no?

GinaC 15-Dec-18 01:27 PM

Relationships are what build a simming community IMO. Not that tech doesn't play a role, but without relationships, the tech is moot.

TristanWolfSB118 15-Dec-18 01:28 PM

@Josh [TNU] Seems like overflow for a continuation of a discussion between tech and character focus

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:28 PM

RunLikeAZombie 15-Dec-18 01:28 PM

Martian is more about Man vs Mars, or man's relationship with himself

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 01:28 PM

agreed ^

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 01:29 PM

Alright move over to #panel-3-overflow

and lets hand this to the next panel

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:30 PM

Alright, welcome to the panel about Creating Effective Alien Races. I'm Patrick though I am commonly referred to as Confusedfire and have been for my entire fanfiction writing life. I currently am the CO of the USS Onnar and Vidal Fleet Yards over in Bravo Fleet, but have many years of experience.

Jitterbug 15-Dec-18 01:31 PM

Hello, I cant wait to hear what you have to say.

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 01:31 PM

same looking forward to this topic

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:32 PM

All alien races, cultures, and civilizations have four basic parts: Location - Where they live, work, play, etc Politics - The structure of their government, how they interact with others, etc Biological/Physiological - What they look like, internal organ makeup, etc Historical - The background of that culture, how they became what they are, etc

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:32 PM

I actually helped create an alien race so this would be fun to engage with

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 01:33 PM

@enterDanement which one?

Jitterbug 15-Dec-18 01:33 PM

I usually design alien races as a hobby, or alien creatures.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:33 PM

What about their languages?

@SilverBullet the Malacosladae

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 01:33 PM

Bless you

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 01:33 PM

I knew that sorry

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:34 PM

hahaha

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:34 PM

For the first part of this discussion I will open with how to come up with the above parts of your alien race or culture. First, you need to know what kind of relationship they are going to have with your simm. This leads to an antagonist/protagonist relationship. Keep in mind that antagonists typically are different in some way and lack any types of common ground.

aio 15-Dec-18 01:34 PM

I found a site that helped me create a language for a race I had a hand in, not creating, but growing beyond the 2 or 3 line description that existed.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:34 PM

Language for instance could be one of those things that create a barrier and lack of understanding. It would probably fall under the broader part of their culture or historical perspective.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:35 PM

Memory Alpha helped me expand more on the Denobulan language. There's not much to go on within the site, so I built more of what Enterprise had

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:35 PM

Creating languages are a difficult aspect. So how does everyone here come up with a useful language and then how do you get past that barrier without necessarily using an universal translator?

Jitterbug 15-Dec-18 01:36 PM

Language making has been one of my struggles, since I always make random names that don't have a core structure.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 01:36 PM

One of the species in our group was developed as using Esperanto, an actual language. This has helped with developing names for festivals, foods, etc. in their world.

aio 15-Dec-18 01:36 PM

Well I had enough of the language that I could extrapolate certain words I would need, and use them in the sentences, so if I am writing a specific post set in their language, I would write it as English, and then certain words, units of time etc, in the native tongue

Camila 15-Dec-18 01:36 PM

Pictograms of "Shaka, when the walls fell"

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:36 PM

I personally have found several language generators and/or have used base languages like Latin to come up with my own when it's been necessary. In character I generally notate a foreign language in English, but will bold or italicize it.

aio 15-Dec-18 01:36 PM

In much the same way the Klingon Qapla' was never translated.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:37 PM

Denobulan, I've learned, is similar to the spanish language. Also mix it with Cardassian and Klingon, I was able to create more sentence structure.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 01:37 PM

I don't really bother for the races I create. But with the universal translator, I have a get out of jail free card. when i need an epithet or a name, I tend to pick something that sounds vaguely like it comes from the inspiraiton material (greek myth, celtic legend etc etc)

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:37 PM

Qapla' in general means success

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:37 PM

For instance, the Onnar recently discovered an extinct alien race in which the universal translator had to learn the language. So we still wrote it out in English, but it was bolded and mentioned by the crew that they couldn't understand it.

Now then... Back to the antagonist/protagonist relationship.

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 01:38 PM

with the race I created, the Threans, I made a simple writing system, and am working on translating a simple English discretionary to the Threan language. Needed Verbs/nouns/etc only, so it can be expanded on later.

aio 15-Dec-18 01:38 PM

@enterDanement Yes, but in a sense that it was never translated, thats how I use the language I use, throw in the odd words here and there.

https://www.vulgarlang.com/ This is the one I used.

Vulgar

demo

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:38 PM

True

https://wiki.starbase118.net/wiki/index.php?title=German_Galven/Native_Language

Native Language

Camila 15-Dec-18 01:39 PM

https://lingojam.com/AlienLanguage If you want symbols instead of words

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:39 PM

something I'm working on

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:39 PM

So antagonists are typically different from the simm in some way right? Let's use the Founders who are in fact Changelings and how much they despised those they called solids. Whereas, protagonists such as the relationship between the multiple races of the Federation all had commonalities with each other. That being their common belief of exploration and mutual understanding.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 01:40 PM

For those of us that are into linguistics and understand how a language is built, it can be fun to build the phonic rules.

2

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 01:40 PM

True indeed!

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:41 PM

Also sorry to distract everyone from the main topics

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 01:41 PM

@Confusedfire The two races I have been working on are at war with one another. I have set things up for the Federation to become a deciding factor once contact has been made.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 01:41 PM

For me antagonists, have suffered extreme hardship or have extreme beliefs, driving them to separate from other races, whereas protagonists tend to seek connection with others.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:41 PM

The next question that you have to ask when coming up with the basic parts of your alien race is whether or not there is a scientific purpose to them. Do you need them to be extinct? Do you need the people to understand this alien race? (Again is their language so different that it's difficult to understand).

@GinaC have you ever had one of those antagonists be isolationists?

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:42 PM

With the Malacosladae, they were in hibernation for a long while underneath the surface. The planet they were on became a mining civilization and due to the radiation and other effects, it started to harm them to point of extinction. So they retaliated and started kidnapping the surface people (edited)

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:43 PM

In reference to the extreme hardship because sometimes that will cause an isolationist society to form.

Jitterbug 15-Dec-18 01:43 PM

I made an race of 6 inch tall, primal intelligence alien shrimp people, that used their own confusing language. One of the goals of the rest of the galaxy was to translate these communications.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 01:43 PM

Xenophobia is common as a result of some events and situations @Confusedfire

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:43 PM

I especially like that suggestion @enterDanement

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:44 PM

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:44 PM

It gets to the heart of how desperation can shape a society.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 01:44 PM

When dealing with antagonists, the biggest question is motivation...why are they the way they are? This can be a central focus that gives a race depth.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:44 PM

Exactly @GinaC

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:45 PM

I learned through my Captain's wisdom is that some of the enemies we have to deal with aren't enemies at all and are scared and confused by us as well. We are as much alien to them as they are to us.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:45 PM

Also, how does that antagonist go about conflict? Do they openly attack those that they disagree with or do they move in the shadows?

Do they try and force their adversaries into conflict so that they can play the "victim"?

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:45 PM

We try to talk it out rather than use any kind of conflict

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:46 PM

But, sometimes war is inevitable

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:46 PM

Although in my current mission, we are dealing with hard headed ignorant pirates.

Camila 15-Dec-18 01:46 PM

How words start wars

“I seem to be having this tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle.” —Arthur Dent's statement that caused the Vl'hurg's war

1

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:46 PM

Though, diplomacy does have its benefits. So then how do you turn that antagonist into a protagonist? Most people would try to find common ground, but what if there isn't any?

GinaC 15-Dec-18 01:46 PM

There's also a couple types of antagonists...those that can be swayed by having an unmet need finally met...and those who are so self-focused that they believe they are the only ones who can help themselves.

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 01:46 PM

I believe that war should only be inevitable if both sides have a really good motivation, tho. (edited)

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:47 PM

This is true @Phoenix Lalor

Jitterbug 15-Dec-18 01:47 PM

I made an alien concept where humans were the antagonists, and they were invading and ransacking planets to feed their growing population. My aliens were the ones trying to survive and protect themselves.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:48 PM

If there's no common ground, then a hopeful solution would be implemented, but I usually try not to shoot first until the opposition does

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:48 PM

A very interesting way to go about it @Jitterbug

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:49 PM

We also have writers that are Diplomats and it's their job to talk sense into these people.

Jitterbug 15-Dec-18 01:49 PM

I also had another concept where an alien colonizing ship landed on an earth where humanity has disappeared. They had to learn the planets history, and survive on a world that is strange to them.

While at the same time discover where humanity went.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:50 PM

German is a Xenobiologist as well as a couple other things. So he's more interested in their physiology and how to use it against them if the situation calls for war. (edited)

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 01:51 PM

The concept I have been working with is that one race is a minor member of a super government or collective and have not received good treatment since joining or aid in their war with another race. So they have become withdrawn and started to forma defensive line against the collective government while fighting on the front of their 100 year long war.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:51 PM

Alright so moving on... The best alien races are typically based off of a real world culture. For example the Romulans/Remans are similar to that of the Romans and the Klingons (while fluid) have been based off of many adversaries of the United States. There is also the cultural relationships at play (Romans/Carthage) this could be almost compared to the Romulan relationship with its neighbors. Like the Romans and Carthagians Klingons and Romulans haven't always gotten along.

So, which culture has interested you the most? Do you intentionally seek out cultures that have little information to go off of in order to invent your new alien?

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:52 PM

I see Klingons as like the Russians. As long as we're on their moderately good side, we should be good.

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 01:52 PM

I used a mix of Japanese and Lakota (native american) culture to create aspects of the Threans.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:52 PM

Initially the Klingons were based off of Soviet Russia (In TOS)

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:53 PM

Well then I'm not far off then am I lol

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:53 PM

Well... The relationship between USSR and the US was similar to that of the Klingons/Federation

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 01:53 PM

very

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:53 PM

But, we can find correlation between the Klingon Empire and the Vikings as well.

1

GinaC 15-Dec-18 01:53 PM

Real world interactions between cultures certainly can create more organic storylines. Many Original series races were based on RL enemies at the time.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:53 PM

The Tholians are much like North Korea.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:54 PM

Just like how the Cardassian/Bajoran relationship was initially similar to Nazi Germany/Jewish people

And, the Breen as well because like NK they are isolationist

@GinaC you make an excellent point. And, that is also true of the later series' and movies

Uso 15-Dec-18 01:55 PM

Or are they? I love all the Breen conspiracy theories

Breen homeworld is actually a paradise, Breen are secretly romulans or whoever, etc

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 01:55 PM

nice!

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:55 PM

Now I'm trying to wonder what the similarity is between Denobulan and Cardassian. I see that some people think they are nearly the same. But I feel Denobulans evolved from aquatic creatures. They way they expand their heads would be a good use for staying underwater for so long

GinaC 15-Dec-18 01:55 PM

That's I think why Trek resonates so much with people. It allows us to express our views on RL situations in a safe environment and in a creative way.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:56 PM

Typically @enterDanement it's not so much of the appearance that's similar to a culture (or how they evolved) but the historical context and development of that species

Exactly @GinaC

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:57 PM

I wasn't talking about both species' appearance

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:57 PM

I misunderstood I apologize

GinaC 15-Dec-18 01:57 PM

As far as appearance...it can also be through what they wear (armor, style, etc)

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 01:58 PM

I dont see how Denobulans and Cardassians are alike, Galv?

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 01:58 PM

me either

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 01:58 PM

My son created an alien species to write with his friends with and he started with things he found interesting which are fish and built up an aquatic world and a writing system. He used things he learned from spore as a basis to build up from there

GinaC 15-Dec-18 01:58 PM

One species in our group is Magna Romans who have been described as being like gladiators.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:58 PM

The best way to develop a species or society is to research real world societies and, maybe even use other books for reference. I'll use the alien race that the Onnar has been developing as an example here. They are a monarchy much like early Britain, but have a "George Orwell's 1984" feeling to them.

Jitterbug 15-Dec-18 01:59 PM

I made an alien race which has gladiator tournaments to represent their cultural past

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 01:59 PM

I think as adults we overcomplicate the writing and creation process. We try to fit things into boxes and we hit creative walls

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:59 PM

That is an excellent idea @[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim

GinaC 15-Dec-18 01:59 PM

Slightly off topic, but the same with tech for a species. Using real world tech makes fiction tech more tangible.

Jitterbug 15-Dec-18 01:59 PM

These battles were large gatherings that brought people from across the galaxy to watch

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 01:59 PM

My son is now 12 but he's been working on them for a couple of years.

Uso 15-Dec-18 01:59 PM

That is true of everything. Everyone tends to try to make more than they need.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 01:59 PM

As indicated during the last panel nicely put @GinaC

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 02:00 PM

Yeah, I tend to overindulge on things when I started. But I homed myself in and learned through the experienced writers.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:01 PM

So... This has already been touched on quite a lot, but next I want to talk about the historical context of the aliens that you're creating. This should always answer the why questions. How did the alien race come to be? (The above example of an aquatic species) Why are they warlike? Why are they peaceful? Why are they an isolationist society?

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 02:01 PM

Are we going on any alien race?

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:02 PM

The above mentioned technology is another thing that can be touched on with the historical context. Was the alien race conquered by a more advanced species? Did they steal the other's tech?

It's really kind of a broad brush approach @enterDanement if that answers your question?

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:02 PM

And this can create some great plot arcs, too.

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 02:03 PM

My race the Qiz'rith are drivin only by basic primal needs: Colonize, feed, and reproduce.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:03 PM

Give writers a way to feel they're contributed to a world. Make them more invested.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:03 PM

That sounds like an excellent race @SilverBullet ... What in their past made them that way?

Jitterbug 15-Dec-18 02:03 PM

My one was war-like because the planet made them so. They lived on a planet where temperature reached 98 degrees, and the only water was in caves and under sheer cliffs. There were no plants, but photosynthesizing animals, and carnivores were ferocious. This caused them to always challenge each other for access to water sources, and to defend against large and fearsome predators.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 02:03 PM

You know, Dokkarans used to be peaceful. Then when they were exposed to other races. They don't have as much firepower as other species. It's kind of sad when a peaceful species has to resort to some kind of weaponry to protect themselves.

1

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 02:04 PM

With the kiddo's aliens, they evolved upwards and are generally peaceful though they have warrior occupations and castes. They tattoo their occupations by their eyes. He adds what he finds interesting. He always liked the aquatic stage of Spore

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:04 PM

Another fine example @enterDanement . Sometimes interactions with other species will change one. (edited)

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 02:05 PM

@Confusedfire Genetic experimentation developed to save themselves from their planets doom. Thousands of years later they have evolved into a space dwelling insectoid species with a limited intellect to match their "perfect state"

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 02:05 PM

The Ash'lie species are total pacifists. There's one in my science department and I asked why she joined us and wouldn't it affect her morals.

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 02:06 PM

@Confusedfire And not always for the better

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:06 PM

All of these are excellent examples of living alien races that we've come up with. But, what about those that are extinct by the time we discover them? How would you go about explaining what happened to them during their own histories to get them to be completely wiped out?

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 02:06 PM

Well, that's something I'm about to write in an upcoming sim

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 02:06 PM

I love a good post apocalyptic story

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:07 PM

I'll use the aliens that the Onnar has been creating. They are extinct due to a civil war that wiped their entire species out. But, there are other ways that a species could become extinct as well.

Jitterbug 15-Dec-18 02:07 PM

For my earlier mentioned comment, where an alien race colonized an humanless earth. I said that the older alien races "put down" the humans, in hopes of protecting the galaxy from the corruption.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:07 PM

@enterDanement There's an Aenar on Vidal Fleet Yards and they are pacifists as well... Sometimes situations like that make an excellent story (edited)

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 02:08 PM

We're on this decaying planetoid only occupied by pirates. What was it before? Who lived there? I feel like a huge volcanic eruption destroyed the planet as if Yellowstone blows up on earth. (edited)

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:08 PM

I think this is underused as a plot device. We did recently explore in a 118 story our crew taken back in time and actually being the cause of an entire planet's decimation without wanting to be.

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 02:08 PM

You might not need to

Freak accidents sometimes occur

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:08 PM

That is an excellent plot device @GinaC and yes it is underused

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:09 PM

I'd love to see it used more honestly. Not to the point that we're beating a dead horse so to speak, but...

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 02:09 PM

@GinaC the best part of that story it that we were seemingly destined to go back in time and destroy it, due to it being unexplained and destroyed in our time already.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 02:09 PM

Freak accidents occur, but messing with the timeline could cause a butterfly effect of chain reaction of a greater scale. So that freak accident shouldn't be glossed over @Stephen Hunter UK (edited)

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:09 PM

Another aspect to the historical context is it can help dictate how technologically advanced that society is, or what led them to be as such. An excellent example is a story I learned about in my Sci-Fi Literature class where an alien race tries to conquer Earth, but their weaponry is centuries behind ours and we wipe them out.

How did such a society that managed interstellar flight long before we did manage to be so far behind us in weapons technology?

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 02:10 PM

that reminds me of enders game^

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 02:10 PM

Like the Vulcans

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:11 PM

I don't remember the title. But, they were using swords against us and we had artillery and tanks

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 02:11 PM

or how the Bajorans traveled to Cardasia first

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 02:11 PM

Or why Klingons and Tribbles can't get along

Where does the madness stop?!

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 02:11 PM

lol love that story

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 02:12 PM

Thing is, if we got wiped out by an asteroid strike, much of our civilisation would simply disappear within a thousand years

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:12 PM

Alright, so moving on to my final part here. We've already touched base on this one as well, but the character of the alien race that you wish to include in your story is a huge part. Are they isolationists like the USSR and NK? Are they peaceful explorers like the Federation? Are they warlike such as the Klingons?

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 02:13 PM

But don't create a planet of hats

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:13 PM

Maybe they seek perfection like the Borg and so try to assimilate other cultures for their technology?

Jitterbug 15-Dec-18 02:13 PM

For my wiping out of humans, the aliens created a disease that targeted humans, but left the ecosystem intact. Then they cleaned up the mess and erased the event from timelines

That was for the previous question (edited)

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:14 PM

there's an actual value to planet of hats

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 02:14 PM

the character I developed for the Threans is a prideful, judgmental, head strong, racist, that would do anything for her people.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:14 PM

Most times an antagonist in your story is going to have a different character than that of your own. Sometimes a desire to control everything leads that culture to be warlike. Maybe the sense that everyone is threatening to you for any number of reasons you conquer them?

And, not every individual in that species is going to hold to the same character as the species in it's entirety so how do you deal with that?

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 02:15 PM

Single planet-wide cultures aren't necessarily plausible as well

We've still not got one.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:15 PM

That is a fine point @Stephen Hunter UK

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 02:16 PM

I think having other players add to the race by playing members, as characters or NPC's would do a great deal in that respect.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:16 PM

Well, the value isn't realism

The value is "rapidly generating a planet"

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 02:16 PM

@Confusedfire There is also a warlike desire for self preservation

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:16 PM

You should definitly go back and make it more fractured, yes.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:16 PM

@Confusedfire Exactly. I've seen factions within a species that are like night and day.

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 02:16 PM

Attack any possible threats first

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:16 PM

Both of you make excellent points @Stephen Hunter UK and @GinaC

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 02:16 PM

I can think of one RL culture like that

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:16 PM

Look at the Klingons... Remember Dax said that they are a diverse people "Some of them are strong and some are weak"

Uso 15-Dec-18 02:17 PM

The two types of people

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 02:17 PM

Some are brown, some have hair, some are grey and bald

Uso 15-Dec-18 02:17 PM

Some are Brutal, yet cunning. Others are cunning, yet brutal.

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 02:17 PM

@Uso Those who understand binary and those who don't?

Uso 15-Dec-18 02:17 PM

Yeah, the 10 types of people.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:17 PM

Exactly. Diversity can make a world beautifully complicated.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:18 PM

Like the cuddle fish @Uso ? Some of them are really large and others are really small... So the small ones make up for it with cunning and wit

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 02:18 PM

Indeed. Humanity is a very diverse species

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:18 PM

That we are @Stephen Hunter UK

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:18 PM

I mean, it can. I.. think what I want to say is

That yes, you can complicate a world. But if you're not needing that, then a non complicated world (a planet of hat) is sufficient for the purposes

If you aren't ever going to land on Nowhere V, then Nowhere V can be a simple paragraph description

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:19 PM

So how do you deal with the outliers in your stories? When you're creating an alien race how do you deal with the alien individuals?

If most of society is warlike and a small few are pacifist how do those two groups interact?

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 02:20 PM

The outliers might emigrate

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:20 PM

I think that would depend on how authortarian to indivdualistic the government is.

If it's warlike but values indvidiualism, the answer's clear

SImularily, if it's collectivist, the answer's also pretty clear

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:20 PM

It depends on the world. For example, Al-Leyans who don't fit the norm are brainwashed (reconditioned) or exiled.

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 02:21 PM

A lot of views of Russians are shaped by the emigre community

Uso 15-Dec-18 02:21 PM

@Confusedfire Usually I make a few different alien characters and kinda shotgun them at my players. You never really know which characters are going to be popular until you start using them... once you see which ones your players respond to you can start following/developing those characters

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:21 PM

The secret to developing a well rounded alien culture is understanding that the individual may not be like the rest of society and how that could affect the larger whole. A static society or alien race is one where every individual is the same (commonism). By keeping in mind that all races, cultures, species, aliens, etc are diverse the story is no longer static.

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 02:21 PM

i.e. those who left in a not exactly voluntary manner

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:21 PM

That is an excellent way of getting everyone involved @Uso

Uso 15-Dec-18 02:21 PM

The 'Canary Deployment' of RP

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 02:21 PM

So, a home world might get a bad rep because of how the exiles see it

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 02:22 PM

You guys going to need overflow?

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:22 PM

Anyway thank you all for your time and attention. That's really all I have on the subject I appreciate the insight you've all provided

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 02:22 PM

Thanks!

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:23 PM

I especially appreciate the examples everyone provided with their own created alien races they were excellent.

1

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:23 PM

It could @Stephen Hunter UK

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:24 PM

It very easily could be affected by that @Stephen Hunter UK

Jitterbug 15-Dec-18 02:24 PM

Thank you for keeping us captivated @Confusedfire

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:24 PM

But that's the beautiful thing. For those Al-Leyans raised within it, that's just the norm.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:24 PM

np

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 02:30 PM

And hello; so for the next panel its discussion of how to manage players in a larger conceptual lens. This is pretty much a GM discussion about how to manage attendance, posting requirements, diffuclties OOC etc.

So first I would like to start off with asking how you keep track of your player's activity; leaves and so forth?

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 02:31 PM

pulls out note padd

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:31 PM

We use Google Excel for our ships and the group admin uses it for wider tracking too.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 02:31 PM

Nova does most of that for me, but I also track the saved JP's to see if they are actively engaged in writing them.

Jitterbug 15-Dec-18 02:32 PM

I'm all ears, and maybe some attitude...

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 02:33 PM

I use Nova's activity monitor, and I keep an eye on the backend to see if they're still writing, even if they're not publishing.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:33 PM

Google Sheets is a fairly reliable method of tracking. I remember in one case using it to track how many JPs, tags to x people, sims per week, sims per month, sims per PC and PNPC..

So.. gsheets.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:34 PM

We also use it to track promotion requirements for our Trek-based game. It's very handy.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:34 PM

(I also remember it becoming a chore to update.)

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 02:34 PM

Lael, is this on the Montreal or the fleet in general?

Immortal Cyan 15-Dec-18 02:35 PM

Most of the plots on the sites I RP on have plot pages, which detail the ranks, occupations, and any additional notes of the players in the plots. But, we don't necessarily track posting activity, unless it's really obvious that one player isn't posting.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:35 PM

I know for the Montreal, not sure about the fleet as a whole @Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118]

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:35 PM

Pholin: Depending on where your CO was trained, it's likely to be wider than just that ship

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 02:35 PM

Thanks!

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:35 PM

The ship I was on also did promotion tracking that way, although I never saw it myself.

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 02:36 PM

is now afraid what his CO thinks of him

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 02:36 PM

I use a really old forum thread that I updatee every week

its really old school and painful

So with that said though any advice you have on this topic; about keeping track of your players before we move on to another topic?

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 02:38 PM

All I'd say is... the type of data matters. If you're tracking activity... if someone's going through a slow or rough patch... it's best to find out why they're slowing down or being distant before just assuming that they don't want to be a part of the game.

Inter-player relations are a major factor in stalls.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:39 PM

Develop expectations. That way you can better build a way to track it. Convey those expectations so you have something to build a tracking system on.

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 02:39 PM

Especially if a new player got off on the wrong foot... or a fight happened you don't know about.

Expectations are a MUST

Especially communicating those expectations

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:39 PM

Well. I can say that if you are tracking activity, the major thing you also need to do is to reach out on a personal level if they seem to be struggling through a wall.

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 02:39 PM

^^^

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 02:40 PM

My CO (tries to) write(s) every month talking about my activity and experience, so he asks why I was inactive and gives me tips when needed.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:40 PM

Because it might be burnout, sure, but it might just be that maybe you're writing storylines they simply aren't interested in and cannot get interested in.

(as a rather personal example)

and finding that out early before they reach burnout so you can recommend other things works best for you and them

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 02:41 PM

Lael and often now German keep me updated and on track. ❤

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 02:41 PM

Yep. Making sure players are able/willing to engage in the story is essential.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 02:41 PM

Okay; so the next question is more related to that... LOAs; how do you generally handle them and what are your limits with them? Also if you feel like someone is taking a LOA just because they are tired of the game; how do you feel out for that?

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:41 PM

When I see a person excelling, I look at the expectations and hint them in that direction. Likewise when I see a player struggling, I offer them my experience and offer to be a bouncing board for ideas.

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 02:42 PM

For me, LOAs shouldn't be more than a week. One can usually tell if an LOA request is due to a spat with the group or a player, or if something interrupted their life.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:42 PM

We don't really limit LOAs unless they start really impacting their ability to participate. Even then, it's an open discussion. But we do ask to be kept up to date.

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 02:42 PM

Of course, in the digital realm, it's easy to lie about such things.

Mecha meme 15-Dec-18 02:42 PM

I just got here, is this still Jack’s panel?

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 02:42 PM

Only one week for a LOA? What if a person goes on holiday for two or three weeks and can't post?

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:43 PM

Well, the thing is, I've filed 6 month LOAs.

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 02:43 PM

In sb118 I was encouraged to take an LOA if I felt I needed a break from the game.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:43 PM

Because I've had periods where work simply kept me at workl for 60+hr a week.

aio 15-Dec-18 02:43 PM

@Josh [TNU] How do you handle your LOA's and such?

SilverBullet 15-Dec-18 02:43 PM

though I have never atken or needed one

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:43 PM

I feel thjough, greenfelt22 has a valid point

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 02:43 PM

@Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] there's always exceptions to the rule.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:43 PM

Over a week is when you should suspect something else is going onm

It might be just "Oh, I'm entering finals crunch"

or it could be "Yeah, I have no idea what I'm doing an dcan't kleep up"

..doing, and,keep, self, learn to type

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:44 PM

We track as much as we can reasons for them and check-in with players OOC as their pre-stated LOA is coming to a close.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 02:44 PM

So how my group does it a standard LOA can be 2 weeks. ELOA's a month unless there is something going on but if thats the case we just keep extending the LOA as long as our player keeps in touch at least once a month.

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 02:44 PM

I work 50+ hours a week, am a husband and a father of three... so I definitely have an idea that real life is full of surprises. Because of that, I'm rather lenient with LOAs. I can usually tell if you're avoiding the game, and when I see it, I deal with it.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 02:45 PM

We do basically a 3 out of 5 post or three in a row warning system.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:45 PM

That said.. I don't feel the extended LOAs actually helped my writing.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 02:45 PM

so if you post 3 out o ffive weeks in a month your good

if not we tlak to you about it

but if you miss three in a row (edited)

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:45 PM

So it's one of those .. I dunno. Looking back on it, I think it's one of those case by case comparisons.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 02:45 PM

we also talk to you

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:45 PM

@Josh [TNU] That actually sounds like a good method, but at the same time. ELOAs are the most unpredictable IMO

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 02:46 PM

so I guess a bigger issue in all o fthis is moving on dicipline; handling difficult people and managing that in an OOC context

its a big issue

and this discussion will be long

So obviously we have to deal with difficult people sometimes; it is not the finest part of our jobs but its needed... how do you guys handle this

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:47 PM

.. I think the biggest problem with discipline is that perception matters more than it possibly should.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:48 PM

We do our best to give the benefit of the doubt unless the player proves to be disruptive to the game as a whole. That goes to a disciplinary committee for formal discussion and handling.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:48 PM

You can be entirely correct, and right to discipline someone.. but if the perception is that it's .. more grudge based? It's going to be difficult to swallow.

aio 15-Dec-18 02:48 PM

@Josh [TNU] How do you handle it?

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:49 PM

That said, having a something like a three-strikes system with clear expectations as to what will break each strike, and what can catapult you straight past it is vital.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 02:50 PM

I mean the other thing here is we are all adults or atleast should have the respect of them so then at what point do you just say that someone is not mature enough to be part of a community

becuase when it comes down to it we cant change them; we are random people online they write with

so the user is going to do what they do; at what point is it too far?

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:50 PM

well. Eh. I'm torn on this. I like overly formalized discipline systems because you know at all times where you stand. But you can't always use that - sometimes what you are disciplining isn't misconduct in a way that is necessarily bad actions, but actions that when looked at lead to bad outcomes in a persistent manner.

aio 15-Dec-18 02:51 PM

But you need to be careful how to discipline, because at the end of the day, we are all volunteers, and if its not fun, there's no point in being here.

2

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:51 PM

A lot depends on the personality of the writer and their circumstances. We have to step back from being the CO/FO/Department head sometimes to just be people.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:51 PM

Well, yes.

I'm trying to put this into words, because it's hard for me to do so without examples.

Uso 15-Dec-18 02:52 PM

Transparency is also important. Everyone needs to know why corrective action was taken, and this needs to be both consistent and timely.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:52 PM

(and I've had long enough to think on this to not want to give examples, because I'm no longer sure of what exactly happened.)

Yes.. I will have to say that I respect the argument for 'we must not disclose why we are doing things'. I also feel that you should probably do so anyway in most situations. The perception of cliques can be problematic as much as the existence of one.

Jack Pine 15-Dec-18 02:53 PM

That's how I've always done moderation, from the perspective of being a person. I ask how they're day is, what's wrong if something is up. I like to try and get a feeling for the cause before I jump to a decision. Everyone has their bad days after all.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 02:54 PM

@aio made an amazing point

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:54 PM

Okay, so. The thing is, in my experience (for what it's worth), is that often immature people are ... well, they'll either mature within the rules and become a problem child, or they'll simmer and burn out.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 02:55 PM

I've had to counsel members and even stop people from harming themselves. We are volunteers though and this is for fun; if a player burns you out with their life problems and threatens to find you etc etc

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:55 PM

The first are easy enough to spot, and usually don't ruin the fun.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 02:55 PM

at that point its not worth keeping them

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:55 PM

The second... ruin the fun.

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 02:55 PM

Being a RP Forum Admin is like being a camp counselor or a group therapist

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:55 PM

Because, as an example I can give, on a ship I served on, there eventually became this atmosphere of being under siege.

From other members, and from the propsect of discipline.

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 02:56 PM

You have to figure out WHY everyone is having an issue, a lot of times, it doesn't actually have anything to do with something that happened on your site or chatroom, it has to do with something else outside of it

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 02:56 PM

Exactly

and its outside of your control

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:56 PM

And.. nothing was done until it exploded. And in retrospect, it was probably interpersonal drama, which is the hardest to manage

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 02:56 PM

True

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 02:56 PM

All you can do is talk to people and figure out why they are actually upset. Many times it's miscommunication

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 02:56 PM

Since you can't just hard-edge it without more bad feeligns that cause more problems

(especially if you think the disciplining board is the cause!)

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:57 PM

I've had situations get tense because a player perceived they were being bullied or edged out.

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 02:58 PM

It is our job as admin to maintain a positive environment for interaction but we are also community managers. Hard booting people for having a bad day isn't the best way to resolve an issue but someone who is THAT DUDE might be better off finding an actual therapist or somewhere else to rp

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 02:58 PM

Ture

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 02:58 PM

You have to figure out what is actually best for your community without being a jerk about it

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:59 PM

You try to talk people through it. Provide ways for them to resolve the issue with the other player through mediation when viable. (edited)

aio 15-Dec-18 02:59 PM

Exactly @[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim. If someone is at the point of self harm, as in this example, their one outlet might be the simming, and booting them off might actually do more damage than they realise.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 02:59 PM

I've heard of this.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:00 PM

The thing is, what do you do if they are prone to taking your attempts of meditation as personal attacks?

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 03:00 PM

You cannot legally be a suicide counselor. That is a legal liability. All you can do is direct them to the proper resources for their region

GinaC 15-Dec-18 03:00 PM

From personal experience, I developed people skills and became more connected with the world through Starbase 118.,

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:00 PM

I mean.. there are people who mature except when it comes to decisions against them, and take those extremely personally.

aio 15-Dec-18 03:00 PM

I would never attempt to do so, to be honest. I would do some googling, and find some actually qualified help.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:00 PM

...*are mature

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 03:00 PM

@Kylindra then it's usually time to get outside help. There could be any number of reasons for them to take it personally.

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 03:01 PM

It is also not your responsibility to talk them down. But having someone who is desperately causing a scene and creating a toxic environment is not healthy for other people in your community who might also be dealing with similar issues

GinaC 15-Dec-18 03:01 PM

If they pose a risk of turning the community toxic, we can't take responsibility if they end their lives or hurt themselves. @[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim Exactly.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:01 PM

Yeah... It's an experience I've had and I'm not sure I at all handled that correctly.

aio 15-Dec-18 03:01 PM

It's definitely a grey area, thats for sure.

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 03:01 PM

I have had to deal with this on multiple communities

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:01 PM

Because one one hand, I understand they want to keep playing because it's something vital to them

aio 15-Dec-18 03:01 PM

There wont be a right or wrong way to handle it, just the best way for the best outcome of all parties.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 03:02 PM

In that instance @[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim then you should take the steps of removal. I would also attempt to contact proper authorities if you know the person's geographical location.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:02 PM

On the other hand, they can often drag down others with them. It creates a bad perception of them, those they write with (if it's usch that the groups are discrete) and the adminstration.

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 03:02 PM

In the end, we direct them to the resources, if they are too toxic, it is to the detriment of the community to provide them ready access to other people at risk and we usually have to temp ban them from chat.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 03:02 PM

True

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 03:02 PM

So legally, you cannot dox someone.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:02 PM

anyway, I'm going to shut up since I'm not really addressing the issue.

I assumed the most you can do if they're actually needing help is reporting them to .. well, their local authorities if you know who they are.

.. depending on locality.

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 03:03 PM

Most times, you don't have their actual locations and addresses. Or even their real names.

TheeFlamehead 15-Dec-18 03:03 PM

Just a quick note, I've always used crisis text line as a resource for my players. Fits our format well

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 03:03 PM

The other thign is soemtimes providers do work in games

like I am in a helping profession

BUT each jurisdiction has their own laws and rules

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:04 PM

Point.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 03:04 PM

and that means hands usually are tied

so its best to just tell them to look for help

GinaC 15-Dec-18 03:04 PM

In the end, you have to protect the needs of the many over the one.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 03:04 PM

This particular part of the discussion could go on for days though so lets move on to the final item I had; abusive players.

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 03:05 PM

I am a certified Sexual Assault Victim Advocate with Suicide Assistance counselling training - I have the training but my community chatroom is not the place for therapy

1

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:05 PM

In which way? (I'm asking because I've seen different definitions of abusive)

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 03:05 PM

Also trained as a 911 dispatcher but the chatroom is not the place for it. As far as abusive players..

GinaC 15-Dec-18 03:06 PM

Abusive players...a quick ticket out especially if they won't cease after repeated warning. and they get banned from the game if they are resorting to the equivalent of cyberbullying.

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 03:06 PM

We are a cyber community so verbal abuse is common. Being being pressured to do specific things ICly

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:06 PM

Okay, so, being a jerk to more then?

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 03:07 PM

If a player is just being abusive to other players, then yeah, you've got to do what's best for the player base as a whole. It is the GM's responsibility to foster a fun and exciting environment. You can't do that when you've got someone abusing or harassing others.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 03:07 PM

Fortunately in the five months I've been with 118, there hasn't been any abuse like that that I've seen. Our community has been a great place for people to interact with one another

GinaC 15-Dec-18 03:08 PM

We have had issues with metagaming and powersimming in the past. Typically it can be dealt with and there's no further issues. But in those cases, the player usually chooses to leave after getting shut down enough.

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 03:08 PM

❤

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:08 PM

Honestly, depending on the severity, a warning is appropriate first, but I think it circles back to the toxic player. My experience is that of Rosek's largely

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 03:08 PM

Player 1 is being badgered into a relationship rp that they really aren't into by Player 2 via DM on another messaging service. It is outside your jurisdiction as Admin of website X but they are both in your community.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 03:08 PM

Consent is the best option

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:09 PM

I'd take the stance it's within your jurisdiction since it's taking place on the group

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 03:09 PM

I second what @Kylindra said

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 03:09 PM

Do you have a policy in place to say that you punish people for being jerks to other members of your community no matter where it happens?

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 03:09 PM

We have written rules.

[22] greenfelt22 15-Dec-18 03:09 PM

I agree with Kylindra. Might not be your service of choice, but it's your gameplay that's affected.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 03:09 PM

True

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 03:09 PM

The Onnar and Vidal Fleet Yards both have rules put into place for such instances.

If it's happening outside of the simm site the offending player can still be removed.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 03:11 PM

Major disciplinary issues, again, go to a fleet admin team. Minor issues are dealt with by COs. It can range from private reprimand to demotion to public reprimand when absolutely necessary.

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 03:11 PM

If Player 1 and Player 2 are actually in a real life relationship and then it goes bad, like, player 1 claims player 2 is hitting them, what can you do? You have the duty to protect your community but it might not be something they can prove as being true

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:11 PM

Well. For that one (or if say, X and Y are jerks on their audiophile forum to each other and it's beginning to manifest in group)

GinaC 15-Dec-18 03:12 PM

You can only report it to the appropriate authorities to invesitigate. In game, you warn them and if they won't desist, they should be suspended or expelled from the game.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:12 PM

Well, the thing is, that's a he-said/.she-saiod

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 03:12 PM

My character being a Denobulan, I've made it to where he is only interested in one person so that other female writers don't feel hesitant to engage with me. I don't want any kind of awkward situation that'd trigger anyone.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:13 PM

How do you know what's actually going on behind the scenes?

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 03:13 PM

There's a lot of ways to know

Especially taking screenshots

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:13 PM

... that only tells you what they said.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 03:13 PM

But in the end, we're not experts.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 03:13 PM

context

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:13 PM

I mean, context is vital, yes

GinaC 15-Dec-18 03:13 PM

That's what police and the FBI are for.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 03:14 PM

Also I'm sure Discord and other chats keep transcripts

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:14 PM

.. okay, so I think I'm reading this question differnetly.

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 03:14 PM

Again, you can only do so much. If there is an actual investigation, you as a community manager can interfere

GinaC 15-Dec-18 03:14 PM

Absolutely. Our admin keeps an eye on all of our forums and mediums.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 03:14 PM

Also we have lots of moderators watching the chat 24/7

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:14 PM

Kim asked what you should do in group for the allegation. For this, I'm assuming that the results of the report to the authorities are unknown

A situation where you can't get an absoulete verification from external sources

GinaC 15-Dec-18 03:15 PM

Even so, unless someone in the group is a police officer or an FBI agent, we have no jurisdiction to make or investigate such accusations.

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 03:15 PM

You usually have the choice to "side" with one person or another. You can't really DO much. You can ban one or both from using your community as a medium which is harmful to the community. (edited)

GinaC 15-Dec-18 03:16 PM

Suspension or probation might be good options.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 03:16 PM

It's best to stay neutral in times like that

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 03:16 PM

My intention was to remind everyone that we are people that are well meaning but we can only monitor what is happening in our sandbox.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 03:17 PM

You can moderate Google groups so that a person can only post once it's been reviewed.

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 03:17 PM

We're a strictly based PG13 simming community. Even strong language isn't permitted.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:18 PM

I mean, for discipline, you have a lot of tools to do so.

But I think I'd agree with Kim's point that you may have ot make a judgement call that you can't be sure about

GinaC 15-Dec-18 03:18 PM

Discernment is the key to wisdom and it's a tough thing to learn. Sadly it comes mostly through experience.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 03:19 PM

people think we are going to need an overflew or?

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 03:19 PM

I think we're mostly in agreement.

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 03:19 PM

It was a great discussion to read

Jack Pine 15-Dec-18 03:19 PM

All tough choices, moderation isn't easy.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 03:20 PM

that is the point of this discussion

to at least try to help

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 03:20 PM

It was a good learning experience for people as well

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 03:20 PM

anyone have final comments before I close this up?

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 03:20 PM

I will go a bit more into my experience when I intro for my panel. ^^

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 03:21 PM

Alrighty

so then 9 minute break folks

XD

Lt. Pholin Duyzer [SB118] 15-Dec-18 03:21 PM

takes a quick nap

enterDanement 15-Dec-18 03:21 PM

restroom break

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 03:31 PM

Cool, I'll start in 2 minutes then

Hi. I'm Notty, I'm currently the CO of Deep Space Five, a sim in Theta Fleet, and the topic for this panel is Conflict powered character design. I've been roleplaying for twenty years, and simming for ten So everyone knows what I mean, I'm talking about creating characters that are conceptually centred around some sort of challenge. For examples, Worf's challenge of trying to live in two worlds - that of Klingons, and that or the Federation, or Data's quest to be a "real boy".

On the sims I've been on, and in applications to DS5, the characters that seem to last the longest all seem to have some sort of core conflict, whether its a search for a missing parent, trying to keep a terrible secret hidden, or just reorient themselves after a personal tragedy.

So to start off, is this a way of designing characters that people recognise?

Do you strive to do with your own PCs?

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:35 PM

I find that in freeform games, I usually try to leave hooks for a conflict within a bio, and work with the GM when I've established the character

I can't quite manage it straight from the background since..

.. well, I don't think I'm a particualrly good writer. I've seen characters build it in and pull it off amazingly though. There needs to be some kind of internal conflict to make the character stand out, so I try this with any PC I write now.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 03:37 PM

And do you find it helpful?

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:38 PM

Eeeh. Mostly?

I certianlly remember her. I don't know if I wrote her well, or would do it again

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 03:39 PM

Why not?

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:39 PM

I don't feel I wrote her well. I don't think the conflict was well handled at all.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 03:39 PM

In what way?

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:40 PM

I believe it's a valuable tool to writing - don't give weaknesses, give a conflict that drives them to conflicting desire v duty, but.

I don't think if I asked anyone would remember her from the group she was in. And honestly, I resolved the conflict in a way that didn't involve other characters.

Uso 15-Dec-18 03:40 PM

All my best characters tend to be based on a problem-solving approach. When it comes to their character sheets I try and make them as minimal as possible. I like for their history to be stuff they've done during an RP rather than stuff I've made up for them. The two examples I have in mind are 'The hardworking, logical, and well planned approach' character and the 'First thing that comes to mind' character.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 03:42 PM

So you don't need a core problem for them to solve? just an approaching to handling what comes along?

Uso 15-Dec-18 03:44 PM

Right. I feel like I don't need to build in hooks for the character, I just need to play in the setting the GM sets up and that stuff will come naturally. The only real question I have about my characters is "How would they act in this situation?" which is why I consider their approach to be the most important thing to figure out.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:44 PM

Well.. yeah, I can see that value. I mean, you don't always need a core problem. Or they can develop one in the course of the writing.

Uso: I've .. had the opposite experience sometimes. A good GM can build you something. Some want hooks. A rare few can't even provide something if you hand them a map

Uso 15-Dec-18 03:45 PM

Pixar says "Be willing to kill your babies". In this case, that usually means I end up dropping my own character backstory hooks.

OH! Have you played Spirit of the Century @Kylindra ?

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:45 PM

Yeah

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 03:45 PM

So you like a more GM lead game? or is it easy to write a character out of the gate without plothooks (I've never managed it, so if you have some tips, I'd be very greatful)

Uso 15-Dec-18 03:46 PM

Great example on how to build in story hooks to characters I think.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 03:46 PM

os would you say its better to have a bunch of hooks in your mind, to scatter as needed, but don't actually put them in your character sheet?

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:47 PM

I try to get a feel for the GM's way of running there

I usually provide some hooks in my backstory that I don't rely on being triggered, though, and look for ones in game.

Uso 15-Dec-18 03:47 PM

@Beautiful Night Your character is going to be however-many years old so you probably have a good idea of where they are in their career. Its certainly fine for them to have broad overarching goals but I usually don't build hooks into their character sheet. Or perhaps it is better to say I tend to focus more on how my character handles the GM's story than their own story.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 03:48 PM

that makes sense

Uso 15-Dec-18 03:48 PM

Really what does the GM and other players need to know besides the broad strokes of your character? As they play with that character you'll sorta naturally build up backstory and familiarity.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:48 PM

Plot integration, generally

Also, they may want to write in something to their backstory that ties into yours in a way

Uso 15-Dec-18 03:49 PM

(The Spirit of the Century Rulebook: http://www.faterpg.com/dl/sotc-srd.html A highly recommended read if you're interested in gameified character development)

Wolf626 15-Dec-18 03:49 PM

I like writing characters with a romanticized version of the world or "The world as it should be". And the conflict comes from reality impacting with that image. I like writing characters that are trying to win that conflict by making the world a better place, even if it is an impossible endeavour. (edited)

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 03:49 PM

This isn't always a possible thing, but it can pay off really well.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 03:51 PM

So what else makes a character interesting, if its not a core conflict? e.g. do people like playing witty characters, or ones that are particularly skilled?

Uso 15-Dec-18 03:53 PM

I wish I knew what made a character enjoyable. I tend to fall back on throwing a few ideas at the wall and seeing which ones the other players find enjoyment in. I've had a few cases where what I thought would be a throw away NPC becomes the favorite in the story.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 03:54 PM

and do you know why? why do your favourites becomes your favourites?

Uso 15-Dec-18 03:55 PM

Part of it is being able to add energy to a scene. There are some characters that always feel like they take work to include. There are others that always seem to bring something to the table and give the story a direction to go.

Wolf626 15-Dec-18 03:56 PM

A character should have aspirations, something they want to do beyond what they normally do. Maybe they want to write a book. Maybe they want to taste every fruit in the space sector. Or they want to retire in a far-off world with their spouses. Having a goal like that makes them interesting for me.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 03:58 PM

I agree. Weak aspirations I think are the number one cause of rejecting an application on DS5. We are looking for players and characters who will be with us for a long time (we have multiple 5 year plus players), so we look for people who have a good goal as they can then work towards it over multiple posts. But I'd argue that having as aspiration is the same as a core conflict. They want something - and they can't have it right this minutes, which reates tension, and therefore drama

Skoll 15-Dec-18 04:00 PM

You can make the worlds best app... doesn't take much to write a good app... but if their is no imagination for writing as that character all you have is a good app and a bad player.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:01 PM

Also true. its a fine balance.

Skoll 15-Dec-18 04:02 PM

Bad players can be good writers and good writers can be terrible players. Writing and roleplaying are a good marriage but a good writer is not synomous with being a good player.

Wolf626 15-Dec-18 04:02 PM

But what about conflict resolution? Say a character had a inner conflict that was resolved, what then? Find and create a new conflict?

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 04:02 PM

half hour

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:02 PM

I think thats the big danger with the approach. when you get to the resolutiopn, you either find a new one, or retire the character

and often neither feel right

you end up with something a shadow of itself.

Uso 15-Dec-18 04:03 PM

the IRL problem with retirement

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 04:03 PM

Yeah, I was working on an app earlier and .. I find sometimes that I have the issue of "This concept is something I want to write really strongly"

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:03 PM

at the same time, building in a conflict that can be put off indefinitely is just as unsatisfying as there is no character development

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 04:03 PM

... and then you realize halfway through that you're trying to write two concepts at once

Uso 15-Dec-18 04:03 PM

The Culture Series and Star Trek sorta both explore this: What do you do when you don't need to do anything?

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 04:03 PM

... and then you start writing. And the character is unworkable, but you've commited.

Skoll 15-Dec-18 04:05 PM

Not at all... if the characters unworkable then you get rid of it sharpishly and work on something else... no co or gm is going to thank you for screwing around with their game/sim with a character you don't like.

1

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 04:05 PM

Really? I've always gotten the feeling that throwing characters away irritates people.

Skoll 15-Dec-18 04:06 PM

If it doesn't work for you it doesn't work for you, so either you are miserable with a character you will come to hate or you get rid of and try again.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:07 PM

unhappy players don't write

Skoll 15-Dec-18 04:07 PM

It will irritate any gm and it may irritate the players around you... but if it doesn't click with you and writing the character becomes a chore rather than a pleasure that's not good

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:08 PM

a good GM will try and help you fix it, wither through ret con, or letting you write a different PC

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 04:08 PM

Yeah.. I had that problem

I couldn't reach the character in my mind

So writing for htem became a chore

Skoll 15-Dec-18 04:08 PM

A good gm is also going to ask you where you think you went wrong

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:08 PM

No character should be a chore. WE sim for fun

I like characters with core conflicts becuase they energise me as a writer, but if they leave you cold, better to find another way

Skoll 15-Dec-18 04:09 PM

I do it to relax... that being said I only rp on two games both of which I run... so I drive myself nuts with having to self motivate to write for stories I know already.

Wolf626 15-Dec-18 04:09 PM

I find it easier to write character who share some characteristics with myself. That way we can relate, while they also maintain a different person than you.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 04:10 PM

Yeah, but .. I feel that part of the issue is that you can never close that conflict off. It has to be something that needs to be there persistantly

Eh. I am really torn on this because this is why I feel that one of my characters got tired to me. She reached her core conflict, and when I moved on to a second character.. I couldn't replicate that feeling

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:12 PM

Charachters have a lifespan as much as people. I think thats possibly why Data wasn't as interesting in the last movie. He had got his emotion chip, so his hunt to be a real boy had come to an end

when that conflict is resolved, sometimes its time to put the pen down, step away from the keyboard.

If you love something, let it go

Wolf626 15-Dec-18 04:14 PM

But keep in touch for the cameos!

Skoll 15-Dec-18 04:14 PM

I change things around regularly... I'll take on new challenges... one of my sims shut down recently after four years of operation so me and my writing partner are working on a new challenge for us and for potential players. So you have to keep challenging yourself all the time. If you never take a chance on a characters issues beyond the mental... take a chance do some research and chellenge yourself in a new way

1

Uso 15-Dec-18 04:14 PM

Brent Spiner will keep getting cameos just because he's the most fun to work with back stage.

Skoll 15-Dec-18 04:14 PM

Brent Spiner was just getting to old to play a character that doesn't age.

Uso 15-Dec-18 04:15 PM

"Data decided to age his apperance," - One line of dialogue solves that.

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 04:15 PM

15 minutes; overflow?

Skoll 15-Dec-18 04:15 PM

You are talking about the second worst film in star trek history... only the motion picture was more annoying

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:16 PM

One thing I do like about conflict driven characters is that it makes it easier to have a character that is ridiculously skilled at something, without being a massive Mary Sue. As long as the two are not linked. IF they are not linked, then that character can still fail a lot at something really important to them

which creates drama and tension,

but still look like a comptent person.

Worf is a good example.

Uso 15-Dec-18 04:16 PM

WHAAAAA

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:16 PM

He's a combat badass

Uso 15-Dec-18 04:16 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUxZmen6G2U

RedLetterMedia

Star Trek: The Motion Picture - re:View

It's the team up you've all been waiting for! Dry and sarcastic meets dry and sarcastic! Two dull, unfunny, elderly men talk about an old, dull, dry film. WH...

How dare you besmirch one of the better Star Trek movies!

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:17 PM

but his core conflict is how to live in two words, how to be a klingon and a federation officer

and all the batleth training in the galaxy can't solve that one

Skoll 15-Dec-18 04:17 PM

Wow I've met someone who enjoyed the motion picture... never thought I would see the day

Uso 15-Dec-18 04:18 PM

It is a slower paced movie, and modern audiances really aren't into that kind of thing, but it isn't a bad movie.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:18 PM

The Origianl Movie is actually a good example of getting a new conflict

If you look at it from the perspective of Kirk is now an admiral, a position he doens't really want,

Uso 15-Dec-18 04:19 PM

ITs also a great arc of Kirk being Kirk: He starts out in the wrong, learns from his mistakes, and then makes a meaningful contribution to the end of the story with his new perspective.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 04:19 PM

but.. hym. THat's a good thing to treflect on

Skoll 15-Dec-18 04:19 PM

I actually like Wolf... always felt the need to turn off when Wesley was around.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 04:19 PM

If a character is causing me to not be able to write, just.. stop writing the character.

Seems obvious. But thanks for the suggestion!

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:19 PM

Sometimes you don't need to stop writing them

Skoll 15-Dec-18 04:20 PM

Walk away from it... revisit the character later.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:20 PM

just...rest them until a better sim comes along

@Skoll exactly!

Skoll 15-Dec-18 04:21 PM

I;ve been doing this lark for twenty three years... I have characters in my head that I haven't used for a decade or more but if the option came along to use them again I'd do it in an instant.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:21 PM

And I've got a grave yeard full of beloved characters that I just don't think I can write again, becuase their conflict is solved, or just not there.

graveyard

not a literal one, a binder full of character sheets

Skoll 15-Dec-18 04:23 PM

We are also influenced by present day world events when we write characters... well I do as I work mainly in the modern day world.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:23 PM

But having a conflict to resolve, or a goal to achieve makes things easier for me. Its a source of posts I can fill in round the edges of a main plot, or find a way to interact with the main plot in a new way e.g. - Oh, we've discovered a floating romulan warbird, can I check their computer files to see if the rrelative my PC is looking for has turned up on the radar of the Tal shiar

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 04:24 PM

Fire more minutes; start to wrap up.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:24 PM

So we've got five more minutes. Any more comments of quesitons

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 04:26 PM

Alright looks like that done.

So in four minutes Tonytonitone will take over with his panel.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:27 PM

Thanks very much everyone, its been a pleasure.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:30 PM

Bon apris midi! My name is Tony, and I’ll be chatting with you from a damp and cold New Orleans, Louisiana.

Today we will be discussing how to craft good and believable characters from the jump.

Uso 15-Dec-18 04:31 PM

omelet du fromage to you too Tony!

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:32 PM

Oui! I’ve been role playing and writing for 18 years. I helped found Shattered Universe. So I’ve kind of have some insight.

I’ve found making a good character can be rather challenging. Due to a lot of factors. In my own experience I’ve made new characters only to find that as a writer I didn’t enjoy writing them. Or that readers and role players simply were not engaged.

I often find that a good character begins at the beginning. How did they grow up? Were they rich? Were they poor? Abused, country? A genetic monstrosity that grew up on a laboratory over the course of a few weeks?

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 04:36 PM

I think my question here is... When you do make that character that seemed good on paper, but wasn't that enjoyable to write do you a) get rid of the character entirely or b) re-write it?

Or, some third option that I'm not getting.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 04:36 PM

Overplanning their personality and history has been a big sticking point in my experience.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:36 PM

I’ve often shifted them to a back ground role. Option C, as it were. Because a boring flat character can eventually be made good with the proper situation.

I find for making a good character, KISS. Keep it simple. Don’t get convoluted that away you have wiggle room to flesh out and adjust as needed in the future.

Skoll 15-Dec-18 04:37 PM

It depends for me what universe I am working in... how I create a character in bravofleet is not how I would approach it else where.... the rules that govern fleets on character creation can be confining if you are used to playing around withcanon characters.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 04:38 PM

My problem hasn't necessarily been that the character was boring, but that I had a hard time breaking free as it were... I mean I made this Commanding Officer once that had a lot of physical problems from an old injury and I could never really get past it.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 04:38 PM

I switch my PC if I get bored. There's a process with 118, but they're generally pretty open.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:38 PM

Yes. As I said keeping it simple. Don’t get me wrong flaws, physical and mental are good. But there is more to a person than their injuries and trauma.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 04:38 PM

We also allow secondaries at a certain rank. This helps at times expand creativity and open options.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:38 PM

how situational do you find character creation? Do you write a character for a given sim, or do something more generic?

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:39 PM

My prize creation; Creature. He has a laundry list of past trauma, pain and history. But he isn’t sitting around harping on it all the time.

A character with a generic nuclear family can be just as engaging as your favorite woobie.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 04:40 PM

We use MSNPCs (Mission Specific NPCs) for that. I at times write NPCs to shift in and out of storylines. I don't really do one shot characters I intend to keep long term.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 04:40 PM

I think that was the thing I struggled to get past... Was the harping about it

Skoll 15-Dec-18 04:40 PM

I will usually have four characters in play on most games I am on... most I have had in any one game is eight.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:40 PM

Yes. I’ve seen many new characters do this:

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 04:41 PM

But, then I think about how the Commanding Officer of the Onnar started out with next to no flaws and then I steadily added some so that I had things to get past with the character.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:41 PM

New Guy walks up to my character “hey you are hot. My daddy beat me and sold me into slavery then I got adopted then I joined the marines then I became a spy but got captured and I’m sad now”

And I as a writer will actually have my PC say “back up. I don’t even know you name. Go away. You are creepy”

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:42 PM

lol. that can be an issue with new writers

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:42 PM

Too much is often too much. But even so, it’s okay to have a sad/dark/ hard past. Don’t hang on to it. Focus on where you want the character to go.

Wallflower 15-Dec-18 04:42 PM

Flaws are good, they help define a character, but they shouldn't alone define them

Skoll 15-Dec-18 04:43 PM

That's when I am grateful I have killing enable on a game... oh dear is that an open lift shaft you just fell down... I don't want to know a characters fails as a character from the ouset… so nope someone gives me a life story I am going to kill something

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:43 PM

@Wallflower writes with me. A few lines of description of how creature looks, and you could see he’d been through it.

Wallflower 15-Dec-18 04:43 PM

Recognition!

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:43 PM

What did he do @Wallflower bombard you with his past?

Or offer your character some coffee?

And that’s the other thing. You can tell your characters past with out actually having them say it out loud. Or making them brooding anti-heros

Wallflower 15-Dec-18 04:45 PM

Creature, despite his edgy design, approached my character with a normal, social greeting.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 04:45 PM

I introduce bits and pieces. I let the story determine my character's background sometimes...

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:45 PM

its like strip tesase. a little at the time is far mre exciting

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:45 PM

Yep

GinaC 15-Dec-18 04:45 PM

I get inspired by her reaction to a given situation

Wallflower 15-Dec-18 04:45 PM

No one knew Creature's name for years OOC because no one actually asked until my character did

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:46 PM

I also find people want their character to seem badass or edgy, beautiful. But they come off as awkward. I suggest, rolling with it. Ask the other writer “hey how did he/she come off”

And I’ll respond “well @GinaC you character seems kind of shy and skittish.”

Uso 15-Dec-18 04:46 PM

Getting good feedback from people is hard.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:46 PM

And you either just roll with it.

Or adjust your style.

It can be difficult. But just because things aren’t difficult that does not mean you shouldn’t strive towards it

GinaC 15-Dec-18 04:47 PM

For sure. Even the action descriptions of others can tell us a lot about how our character is seen.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:47 PM

Writing is hard but we still do it.

Yep

Other things that can help are hobbies

What does your character like to do. And I don’t mean killing zombies

Ori, collects ponchos

Creature watches human westerns and then practices quick drawing outside every day

Wazu likes to have sex with everything he can.

Wolf626 15-Dec-18 04:49 PM

Way to make a character relatable: make them as socially awkward as yourself

Uso 15-Dec-18 04:49 PM

Wazu is a man of many talents.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 04:49 PM

The Onnar has a variety of "community building" programs on the holodeck.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:49 PM

Yes!

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 04:49 PM

To help with character development and team building

Uso 15-Dec-18 04:49 PM

While Uso wonders if 'Murder-hobo' is a profession

2

GinaC 15-Dec-18 04:49 PM

My character has a wide array of them.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 04:49 PM

It is Uso

GinaC 15-Dec-18 04:49 PM

As long as they fit within the personality and background experiences

Camila 15-Dec-18 04:49 PM

Yes, @Uso I have the stats for it (edited)

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:50 PM

Well a character can have a hard life

And be cheery, and fun.

Some people do have it hard but don’t let it take them down

GinaC 15-Dec-18 04:50 PM

Lael for example has serious martial arts skills out of necessity because she was bullied as a kid. But she can crack good jokes and be light and funny too

Uso 15-Dec-18 04:50 PM

Aggressive Cheerfulness is something I enjoy seeing, especially when there are sad-sack characters around.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:51 PM

Yes. It can also create dynamism and playful exchange

I mean would you rather read about a team of super serious angry muscle men?

Or a mixed bag of heroes with different styles and through processes

Now when you’ve gotten your basic down, this is where it’s important; development

Don’t have a plan. Every.

Ever. Let the character develop based on every individual experience you experience with them

GinaC 15-Dec-18 04:52 PM

Exactly. And their experiences throughout the story.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:52 PM

Let them change over time. If you stick to your mold the character won’t ever feel real.

They will feel like a Mary Sue.

Be Jaime Lannister, not Edward Cullen

GinaC 15-Dec-18 04:53 PM

I agree @Tonytonitone You need to allow your character to overcome their flaws (edited)

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:53 PM

Or acquire new flaws

Quit their job.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:53 PM

I sometimes feel like if the character isn't caning, ,or at least adapting, then something's not quite right.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:53 PM

Divorce their wife

Sell Ori into slavery

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:53 PM

no one is static

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:53 PM

Rescue Ori

Immortal Cyan 15-Dec-18 04:54 PM

Hah!

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:54 PM

But going static happens. I’ve done it.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:54 PM

also true.

Wallflower 15-Dec-18 04:54 PM

And if a flaw can't be overcome, then have them deal with that.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:54 PM

Have them embrace it. Or cry about it.

Go to therapy

GinaC 15-Dec-18 04:54 PM

In the case of a character that loses their fluidity, maybe try having them do something completely out of character for them and then they have to deal with the consequences.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:54 PM

but neither do you want a situation where the character is about as impacted by events as those on old sitcoms, like a big reset button has been pushed every episode

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:55 PM

Art imitates life.

So sometimes your precious character may end up in a situation you did not expect

Or that their skill set is completely not ready for

Go with it. Don’t get upset(I mean get upset good writing should make you feel things)

But a wise man once said “If what I’m writing makes me uncomfortable then should be writing it.”

Wallflower 15-Dec-18 04:56 PM

I wrote Ori as someone heavily flawed, she's extremely physically weak and inflexible, and she's not exactly pretty to look at. One of her first threads pushed her into the middle of a firefight, where'd she have to acknowledge her weakness and rely on her strengths to survive.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 04:57 PM

actually i think thats the best oart.. means they've taken on a life of their own

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:57 PM

Precisely

Another success trick to a character is vulnerability.

Show the character being vulnerable. Scared. Let them lose.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 04:57 PM

Vulnerabilities are useful to a character, but.. you can over use them.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:58 PM

Nobody liked Jaime Lannister until he had his hand cut off.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 04:58 PM

A vunlerrnability that matters is important, but the character should not be unable to function all the time because of it

Wolf626 15-Dec-18 04:58 PM

I think the best way to create a character is with two questions: What do they do and why do they do it? (edited)

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:58 PM

Creature could easily fall into the trap of edge lord. But I show him consistently being terrified, uncertain, and facing that.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 04:58 PM

Sometimes though writing a character in a difficult situation (or one where the writer is uncomfortable) it can produce a good piece because that uncomfortable feeling is passed into the character.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:58 PM

Yes

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 04:59 PM

It's best to take breaks though when you're writing something like that.

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 04:59 PM

Indeed. It's good to deploy the vulnerability from time to time

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 04:59 PM

if you always know the outcome it can get redundant and thus boring.

Well kids the power rangers won this week. Will they win next week? Probably so.

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 05:00 PM

But you can have a situation where they lose someone

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 05:00 PM

That's why characters should be put into no win situations or where they have two choices and neither of them are good, but they still have to choose.

From time to time

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:00 PM

I often find as a story teller I engage people when I remove their characters feeling of invincibility. And then relent and allow themselves to be challenged

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:01 PM

I .. have a mixed opinion on this

A character should never get their own way.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:01 PM

Well I don’t like no win situations. But as a game master give them the chance to make a choice

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 05:01 PM

Sometimes adding that element of helplessness helps the plot.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 05:01 PM

drama is about conflict. if losing isn't a real possiblity, there's no chance of drama

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:01 PM

But I feel that the player should never be forced to lose.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:01 PM

A good example? Far Cry 5

You have the option to turn around, and walk away

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:01 PM

Which is usually why I think of this statement a lot when crafting the situation

Wolf626 15-Dec-18 05:01 PM

Allow your characters to win only after they've gone through HELL

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:01 PM

Credits roll. No shame.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:01 PM

"It is possible to do everything correctly, and still lose."

1

Wallflower 15-Dec-18 05:02 PM

If a character acts dumb and plays stupid games? Give them their stupid prizes.

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 05:02 PM

i player shouldn't be forced to lose, but they have to show the character has worked damn hard to win. its more satisfying all round that way

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:02 PM

That is, maybe you saved the USS Doomedship

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:02 PM

But if you have your character on accident make a bad choice. Go with it

Uso 15-Dec-18 05:02 PM

"You can always win," - Kirk

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:02 PM

Don’t let you ego trample a chance for good growth and development

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:02 PM

But the villiain never relied on just that single string

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:02 PM

Actually Kirk lamented that.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:02 PM

so you got a mission success but not a complete one

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:02 PM

His always win attitude turned him into a bitter depressed man who lost nearly everything he cared about

Uso 15-Dec-18 05:03 PM

"Dr. Soren call you a loser." - Picard

"LETS KICK HIS ASS." - Kirk

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:03 PM

Lol

Uso 15-Dec-18 05:03 PM

Star Trek Fight Music

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:03 PM

Another tip. Stop making your characters orphans

Make a character? Have fun, make Support npc’s

Mom and dad. Siblings

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:04 PM

Wait, I thought orphans were a requirement.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:04 PM

Ick

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 05:04 PM

The'y're not likely to be present in many games

Jme 15-Dec-18 05:04 PM

Orphan characters are actually banned or at least heavily discouraged in many games

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:04 PM

It’s almost cliche

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:04 PM

(this is a joke, but a bitter one.)

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 05:04 PM

What about characters with familial conflict @Tonytonitone ?

Wolf626 15-Dec-18 05:04 PM

How making a character appear to be an orphan but they lied to protected their siblings and/or parents?

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 05:04 PM

Most of us will end up orphans eventually though

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:04 PM

That should go away too

Deleted User 15-Dec-18 05:04 PM

Orphans were cliche 100 years ago lol

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 05:05 PM

@Deleted User Higher chance of natal mother death back then

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:05 PM

Yea. That’s more common that not common

Go for real.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 05:05 PM

I'm not talking knock down drag out fights... But, the every day disagreement here and there

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 05:05 PM

What about SOs?

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:05 PM

Creature has a Brother. They are estranged.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 05:06 PM

SOs?

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:06 PM

Bronzi showed up. They don’t try to kill each other. They approach and say hello. They are brothers not enemies

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 05:06 PM

Nvm

GinaC 15-Dec-18 05:06 PM

The issue with orphans is they tend to focus on the woah is me and make the character annoying if not written properly

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:06 PM

Yea

Stop making orphans

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:07 PM

I've unintentionally made an orphan before

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 05:07 PM

I've seen some pretty good orphan characters though... Granted they've usually moved past that orphan stage

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:07 PM

It wasn't until I had her mother killed that i realized what I was doing. :v

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:07 PM

Single parent home is just as bad, and way more believable

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:07 PM

(Her mother died in sim.)

GinaC 15-Dec-18 05:07 PM

Characters who become orphans in game are different.

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 05:07 PM

@Confusedfire Significant Others

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 05:07 PM

Yeah that's why I said nvm but thanks

I figured it out.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:07 PM

My dead wife?

Yea I’ve rarely seen that used in all my years

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:08 PM

As long as she didn't die of the "anime wasting disease"

GinaC 15-Dec-18 05:08 PM

Not a fan if it diverges into their whole existence being focused on that

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:08 PM

Usually I’ve seen orphans who were super good at everything, could fly and were stupid attractive

And never shut up about being an orphan

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 05:08 PM

It's a common device because it shows a character can sustain a relationship, is sexually experienced and single through no fault of their own

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:08 PM

Which at that brings me to my next point

Stop going for stupid attractive looks

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 05:09 PM

Attractive looks?

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:09 PM

I Sergio Leone it. I just like faces. Ugly faces. Pretty faces. Make them a person

Plane Jane

GinaC 15-Dec-18 05:09 PM

My character is attractive, but has physical scars and imperfections

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:09 PM

I usually just roll a dice for that

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:09 PM

I find everybody wants to play an Adonis or super model

@Kylindra amen

I often go for ugly these days when making characters

Or non traditional attractiveness

But thats just me

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 05:10 PM

@Tonytonitone Define "non traditional"

GinaC 15-Dec-18 05:10 PM

I don't do ugly, but I don't try to make them gods or goddeses either

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:10 PM

Adrian Brody rather than Zack Efron

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 05:10 PM

@GinaC Isn't that Margot Robbie as your avatar?

Wallflower 15-Dec-18 05:11 PM

I make my character untraditionally attractive if attractive at all

GinaC 15-Dec-18 05:11 PM

@Stephen Hunter UK yes. (edited)

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:11 PM

And what they look like often defines the character from the beginning.

I also suggest when crafting a character. Examine your community. Look at what everybody else is doing

Then do the opposite of them.

Brooding anti hero’s are everywhere?

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:12 PM

I mean, as an example, I'm writing a character up now.. and I'm going with 'fairly plain, takes no effort, doesn't stand out' (edited)

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:12 PM

I’m making a goody two shoes Paladin. Who saves kittens.

Jme 15-Dec-18 05:12 PM

Well, since a lot of communities use actors for the characters you’re going to get a fairly attractive picture.

Stephen Hunter UK 15-Dec-18 05:12 PM

@GinaC Why did you choose her? (edited)

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:12 PM

... and probably upset about that fact.

Mecha meme 15-Dec-18 05:12 PM

>Brooding anti-heroes

Ballad of edgardo (edited)

Jme 15-Dec-18 05:12 PM

There’s a big difference between a character who just has an attractive picture, and a character who goes into pages of description forcing how attractive their character is down everyone else’s throat.

GinaC 15-Dec-18 05:12 PM

@Stephen Hunter UK I envisioned Lael as someone attractive who was also smart but people took the latter for granted because of her looks.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:13 PM

(yes, that's self inflicted partially, but that's on purpose, I wanted to portray someone who got too involved in her work to realize part of her problems are her own.)

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 05:13 PM

Also there's a wishfulfilment element to characters, a lot of people want to be the pretty they are not in real life

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:13 PM

Alright, fifteen minutia left. Q and A time

Zech ♿ 15-Dec-18 05:13 PM

I love my characters

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:13 PM

Ask me questions and I’ll give you answers and insight!

GinaC 15-Dec-18 05:13 PM

@Jme Exactly. Lael doesn't flaunt her looks. She flaunts her personality.

Jme 15-Dec-18 05:13 PM

Ll

That was the cat

Uso 15-Dec-18 05:14 PM

@Tonytonitone What's the secret to making a fun villain?

GinaC 15-Dec-18 05:14 PM

ooo. good one.

Mecha meme 15-Dec-18 05:14 PM

Ohhh that's a good one

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:14 PM

Very good one.

Tugar 15-Dec-18 05:14 PM

Pretty people can be very ugly... It's not all about looks. Though I get the wish to be better looking

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:14 PM

Make your villain a character.

And make him able to harm the players

Jme 15-Dec-18 05:15 PM

@GinaC agreed. If you look at the Canon shows, we use actors to portray the characters but the characters are not based on their appearance. They just have an attractive appearance because that is how TV shows work.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:15 PM

also, look at something like Dukat.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:15 PM

Thirdly and most importantly, don’t go for insanity. Make me a villain who thinks he is the hero.

Kylindra 15-Dec-18 05:15 PM

Who you could never quite tell if he was going to help or harm until the last season

Mecha meme 15-Dec-18 05:15 PM

Villains doing the wrong thing for the right reason are great

Beautiful Night 15-Dec-18 05:15 PM

Dukat had charsma in bucket loads, that can sometimes be hard to do on the page

GinaC 15-Dec-18 05:15 PM

@Tonytonitone You just summed up the ultimate villain

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:15 PM

In wrestling the Heel was the most important part of the cast

Tugar 15-Dec-18 05:16 PM

@Uso not every Villain should be patterned after the joker. There are different kinds of evil

Zech ♿ 15-Dec-18 05:16 PM

For the future how would I make a character that isn’t related to a child a mother figure of sorts. (Basically my character has an adopted Klingon son, and I have him starting a relationship with someone. Wondering for the future).

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 05:16 PM

Think you are going to need an overflow?

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:16 PM

Fourthly, the Reader should be able to even side with the villain.

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 05:16 PM

So Lawful Evil @Tonytonitone ?

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:16 PM

Not necessitate

Necessarily, lawful evil just builds institutions. But chaotic or neutral evil can think they are being heroic

But you can even have a lawful neutral villain who is just some guy.

Following orders

He doesn’t hate you. He just has a job to do and it’s taking your plucky heroes down. Or you are fighting for your county and he is just fighting for his.

@Josh [TNU] nah I’ll turn it over at 16:30

Wallflower 15-Dec-18 05:18 PM

Someone who is "evil" still has morals, but chances are you don't agree with said morals

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:18 PM

Correct

What is evil?

Zech ♿ 15-Dec-18 05:18 PM

The Klingon Child is 14 btw

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:19 PM

Any other questions?

Zech ♿ 15-Dec-18 05:19 PM

I sent one

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:19 PM

Sorry I did not see it

Zech ♿ 15-Dec-18 05:19 PM

Shall I repost it?

Wolf626 15-Dec-18 05:19 PM

Evil is the time it takes for my food to get done in a restaurant.

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:19 PM

Please.

Zech ♿ 15-Dec-18 05:20 PM

For the future how would I make a character that isn’t related to a child a mother figure of sorts. (Basically my character has an adopted Klingon son, and I have him starting a relationship with someone. Wondering for the future). (The child is 14)

Tugar 15-Dec-18 05:20 PM

How is that Question?

Zech ♿ 15-Dec-18 05:20 PM

I don’t know

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:21 PM

Like a step child situation?

Zech ♿ 15-Dec-18 05:21 PM

Yeah

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 05:21 PM

I'm confused by the question.

Zech ♿ 15-Dec-18 05:21 PM

I guess

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:21 PM

Very carefully

Zech ♿ 15-Dec-18 05:21 PM

The kid is adopted anyway

Tugar 15-Dec-18 05:21 PM

Cinderella with a bat'leth

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:21 PM

Have the parent figure befriend and then teach, then progress from there

Wallflower 15-Dec-18 05:21 PM

It depends on the "mother" and the child

Zech ♿ 15-Dec-18 05:21 PM

https://wiki.starbase118.net/wiki/index.php?title=Jang,_Son_of_Upex this is the child

Index.php?title=Jang, Son of Upex

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:21 PM

(I also hate adoptions in role play unless it has a long drawn out story)

Zech ♿ 15-Dec-18 05:22 PM

It does

Real good one

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 05:22 PM

Does the adopter and child have any familial relationship prior to the adoption?

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:22 PM

I recommend you take the less travelled rout

Have the step mom HATE the child

And get abusive

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 05:22 PM

One of my characters adopted her nephew for instance

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:22 PM

Terrorizing the child

Zech ♿ 15-Dec-18 05:22 PM

...

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:23 PM

Then you’ll be able to develop the character accordingly

Confusedfire 15-Dec-18 05:23 PM

@Zech ♿ ?

Tugar 15-Dec-18 05:23 PM

Make the step mom lwaxana

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:23 PM

Hey I was just giving you an idea fam lol

But I’m serious

Uso 15-Dec-18 05:23 PM

Make the step mom lwaxana <-- Do this

Wallflower 15-Dec-18 05:23 PM

One thing to note is this: Adoption is not easy It is not easy For either side, in any way

Zech ♿ 15-Dec-18 05:24 PM

Ok thanks for the advice

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:24 PM

No it isn’t

Wallflower 15-Dec-18 05:24 PM

Fights can hold more serious repercussions, arguments more intensive, and if insults come into play then they can be far more damaging

Tonytonitone 15-Dec-18 05:25 PM

Okay kids five more minuets

Any more questions?

If not, if you enjoyed my panel and @[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim panel then check us out on www.shattered-universe.com you can even come hang out with us in our discord and talk

@Uso give em the discord info

Have a good day y’all! I enjoyed talking and being here for fall fest. Imma go make my tweet and I’ll be around to hang out!

Bienvienudos!

Wolf626 15-Dec-18 05:29 PM

Later!

[OPP | SU | TNU] Kim 15-Dec-18 05:33 PM

@Uso post in the advertising channel / ;p

Jack Pine 15-Dec-18 05:34 PM

lol

Uso 15-Dec-18 05:34 PM

I did!

Mecha meme 15-Dec-18 05:37 PM

I think Kim means

Don't advertise outside of that channel

Josh [TNU] 15-Dec-18 05:37 PM

Yep