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FallFest X
FALLFEST X Sessions / room-one
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 10:45 AM
The Opening Ceremonies will begin in 15 minutes
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 11:00 AM
======OPENING CEREMONIES======
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 11:00 AM
Hello everyone! And welcome to the Tenth Annual Fall Fest online simming convention! I am so glad to see all of you here today! . Pegasus Fleet and Independence Fleet, in association with Ongoing Worlds, are excited to be hosting this year’s event. This year is a special occasion since it marks the tenth year for Fall Fest! I’d just like to take a moment to thank all of our previous hosts, because without all of them, we wouldn’t be celebrating here today!
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[IDF] Ken Gillis 14-Nov-20 11:01 AM
Originally launched in 2011 as a mini-SciWorld more friendly to European time zones, Fall Fest has since grown into so much, much more--it’s now one of the three premier community events of the year. We continue that legacy today.
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Before we get started today, I’d like to encourage you to share that you’re at Fall Fest in your social media and use the hashtag #OWFallFest. Also feel free to share the Discord invite: https://discord.com/invite/SjKk4T4
We’re represented here today from many different organizations across countless genres and fandoms. What communities are everyone from today? And how many Fall Fest events have you been to?
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[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 14-Nov-20 11:02 AM
Pegasus Fleet and this is my first FallFest
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The Professor 14-Nov-20 11:02 AM
Main fleet is IDF and it’s my first time here
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 11:02 AM
Proud Pegasus Fleet member. This is my second Fall Fest and the first time i've helped to host such an epic event. 😄
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 11:02 AM
Pegasus Fleet Representing 😄 Ive been to a few now.
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[IDF] Charles Star 14-Nov-20 11:02 AM
Independence Fleet. I've at least popped in to all 10 now!
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[PF] Virtam 14-Nov-20 11:03 AM
Pegasus Fleet, and this is my first FallFest
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 11:03 AM
This is my first Fall Fest.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 11:03 AM
We have some newbies this year! Welcome!
You didn't have to stop typing on my account, haha.
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[IDF] Charles Star 14-Nov-20 11:04 AM
Don't be shy, everyone!
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Penta 14-Nov-20 11:05 AM
My first. I sim independent and with 5th fleet.
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 11:05 AM
It is great seeing so many communities represented here! Big and small!
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 11:05 AM
Mine as well.
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 11:05 AM
Mystic Fleet or Mystic Fans Universe representing JFC member. This is my second time on Fall Fast.
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Ringo's Sugar Baby 14-Nov-20 11:06 AM
my first time here, I'm in independent sims
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The Professor 14-Nov-20 11:07 AM
It’s gone again
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 11:07 AM
There's a few new Communities being represented this year, I see unfamiliar names again. 🙂
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[22] greenfelt 14-Nov-20 11:08 AM
Green felt from the 22nd Fleet and this is my 4th Fall Fest.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 11:09 AM
Welcome everyone. I'm very glad to see so many new names and communities this year!
. Our main goal for today is to have fun. We also hope that through our conversations and discussions today, everyone will be able to leave here with some new ideas and viewpoints, new approaches to simming, and most importantly, new friends. To help make that happen, I’d like to go through a few rules and guidelines.
. 1️⃣ Treat everyone with respect and keep any foul language to a minimum.
2️⃣ We have a Zero Tolerance on any form of bullying and/or harassment, including, but not limited to: personal comments, age, race, gender, sexual preference, religion, or fleet/org affiliation.
3️⃣ Fall Fest is always open to all simmers and online role players, regardless of rank or club affiliation. For those of us in Trek/military themed communities, leave your ranks at the door. We are all players here.
4️⃣ Please keep any recruitment or advertisements limited to the dedicated channels. Fall Fest is not intended for recruitment, and we don't want anyone to feel pressured. It’s about sharing ideas.
5️⃣ Please keep discussions on topic and in the relevant rooms. We have provided overflow areas for discussions that run over their scheduled time. Additionally, please limit the use of gifs to the #gif-party.
6️⃣ Please be respectful of other people's opinions on various subjects. Discussions are fine, but please refrain from bashing. Please avoid political conversations altogether. We understand that it might be a hot topic right now, but Fall Fest is not the place for it.
7️⃣ All conversations and images MUST remain safe for work (SFW) There are no NSFW channels on this server because this is a fun, friendly event to reach a wide variety of people. Anything NSFW will be immediately deleted. Should the offending individual(s) continue to post NSFW content, the individual(s) will be removed from the server and banned.
8️⃣ Please do not argue with the hosts or the moderators. If something was removed, it was removed for a reason. Please assume good intentions. Our panelists have also worked hard to determine the direction of their sessions, so please be respectful during their session.
9️⃣ Above all else, let's have some fun!
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The Professor 14-Nov-20 11:11 AM
yay
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[IDF] Ken Gillis 14-Nov-20 11:11 AM
As has been done in years past, we will be providing transcripts of today’s event within the next week or two. Stay connected to this server for updates on that. The server will also continue to remain open year round, so everyone will be able to still view ads from other games and continue to stay in contact with your new friends from today.
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The Professor 14-Nov-20 11:12 AM
woo
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 11:12 AM
We have a great lineup of panels ahead of us today. For the complete list, please check out the #schedule page for rooms and times. At the top of the hour in this room we have @AgentPhoenix with a sneak peak of Nova 3. And in #room-two @[IDF] Charles Star will be leading us in some Star Trek trivia.
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[IDF] Ken Gillis 14-Nov-20 11:13 AM
At 6pm GMT/1pm ET/10am PT @[PF] Thompson and @[PF] AlexM will be leading a discussion on world building and how it can enhance your simming in #room-one, and @[PE] Alexander will talk to us about how to make your game stand out from the crowd in #room-two. (edited)
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The Professor 14-Nov-20 11:13 AM
::makes crowd noises in the back:: (edited)
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 11:14 AM
#room-one will host another panel from @[PF] Thompson at 7pm GMT on how to utilize all of the tools in our writing toolbox. @Beautiful Night will give us some general tips and advice for creating and playing villains for rpgs in #room-two.
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[IDF] Ken Gillis 14-Nov-20 11:14 AM
At 8pm GMT @[MFU] Meran Marci will discuss the creation as well as the development of characters in #room-one. Whether you are an admiral or an ensign, you might find something in here that could help you. In #room-two @Cipherhornet18 will be elaborating on how to make the ship its own character, and the value of having ship options that aren’t ace of all trades.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 11:14 AM
The next block at 9pm GMT will feature @[PF] AlexM talking about how we approach simming, either as a roleplayer or as a storyteller, in #room-one. And @[IDF] Ken Gillis will be in #room-two leading an open ended discussion about Star Trek Discovery, and how it's been going. Now that Season 3 is airing, has it found its legs? Where do you think it should go next? Standard spoiler warning goes along with this discussion.
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The Professor 14-Nov-20 11:14 AM
::continues to make crowd noises:: (edited)
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[IDF] Charles Star 14-Nov-20 11:15 AM
::eating popcorn::
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[IDF] Ken Gillis 14-Nov-20 11:15 AM
For our last block of panels, starting at 10pm GMT/5pm ET/2pm PT in #room-one, @[RPGW] Amanda Rose will be teaching us about RPG Ratings, what they are, and what they are good for. Just as another warning, getting into the reasons for the different ratings will get into using some of the more colorful words and terms, and might slip into people’s discomfort zone. During this panel is the only exception to the restriction on NSFW content for today’s event. And in #room-two during that block @[IDF] Charles Star will be leading us in a friendly game of Star Trek and RP Family Feud.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 11:15 AM
Finally, after our day of events are done, please join us back here in #room-one for our closing ceremonies at 11pm GMT.
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[IDF] Ken Gillis 14-Nov-20 11:15 AM
I'll be running Jackbox games all day in our Jackbox channel. All you need is the ability to watch the stream and a device with a modern browser, and you can join in on the fun. Just be aware that it's possible for things to move a bit beyond PG-13 rating, but let's try to be respectful of everyone's appetite for vulgarity. If there is more demand than we can handle, we have a Jackbox Waiting Room channel, and I will regularly swap out players so that everyone has an opportunity.
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The Professor 14-Nov-20 11:16 AM
ahh
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Talla 14-Nov-20 11:17 AM
To answer the fallfest question..I'm not sure... probably my third. Was associated with another fleet for a long time but this is my first one since joining 16th
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 11:17 AM
Before we start getting ready for our first panels, I want to give a quick tour of the server for those joining us for the first time. .
Right here is #room-one where many of today’s sessions will be held. Next door is #room-two where the rest of our sessions will be held. The two overflow rooms will be used to continue discussions that go slightly beyond their allotted time. Some panels will run over, and we will direct traffic to the appropriate overflow room to allow the next panel to start on time.
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[IDF] Ken Gillis 14-Nov-20 11:17 AM
For general conversation outside of our panels, please check out our #reception, #art-gallery, and #gif-party rooms. Also feel free to post in #introductions and tell us a little about yourself. We’ll keep #schedule updated throughout the day in case anything changes, so keep an eye on that room between panels. We’ll also be posting any really important updates to the #notices channel.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 11:17 AM
We also have our advertisement channels. Everyone is free to advertise their games, but please keep those posts to the relevant advertisement channel. Our focus today will be on the panels, and no one should feel pressured to join a game.
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. If there are any questions, comments, or concerns, please direct them to a member of the @Administrator, or a @Moderator.
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[PF] CorCordale 14-Nov-20 11:18 AM
Waves. Is a friendly Moderator
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 11:18 AM
Direct them especially to @[PF] CorCordale . he loves questions
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[PF] CorCordale 14-Nov-20 11:19 AM
I do
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 11:20 AM
. With that, we still have about forty minutes until @AgentPhoenix and @[IDF] Charles Star kick things off with the first panels of the day. Feel free to hang out in #reception until then. Again, I’m excited to see all of you here today, and I’m excited for the great day ahead of us. Thank you!
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 11:20 AM
Thank you so much - I'm so very excited for my very first Fall Fest! 😄
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[IDF] Charles Star 14-Nov-20 11:20 AM
Thank you @[PF] AlexM and @[IDF] Ken Gillis!
I can't wait for the first events!
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 11:24 AM
Hey all just dropping by on my way home from work. They wanted me for another two hours, I said sorry I'm busy eating babies tonight with the dingos I got some strange looks. English pop culture is lost on Romanians on a building site apparently
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 11:24 AM
LOL
how very Australian of the English to adopt that phrase.
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[IDF] Charles Star 14-Nov-20 11:25 AM
@Skoll I'm glad to see you have your priorities straight.
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 11:26 AM
I like Aussies
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 11:27 AM
Of course! Everyone likes Aussies. 😄
We're very likeable people!
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 11:29 AM
May even try to be sober tonight... despite the kraken sitting in my kitchen or the call of dead man's fingers
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 11:29 AM
They're just really irritable when you try to talk to them during normal people hours 😛
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 11:29 AM
This
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 11:30 AM
I downloaded season 2 of all American to watch at work today... it didn't go well... only half way through the first episodem
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Trident_Gaming 14-Nov-20 11:31 AM
For the Jackbox, we don’t need the actual steam games, correct?
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 11:31 AM
correct
its all down via a browser
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Trident_Gaming 14-Nov-20 11:31 AM
Ok cool
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 11:31 AM
Jackbox?
I've been out of it what is that
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 11:32 AM
no, you don't need to own the games
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 11:32 AM
Our Jackbox game is starting shortly. Trivia Murder Party You just need to watch the stream (No mic needed) and join us at jackbox.tv
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[IDF] Ken Gillis 14-Nov-20 11:32 AM
Yeah, you log into a website with your device
And watch the screen that I'm streaming
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[IDF] Charles Star 14-Nov-20 11:32 AM
Yeah, what is that exactly? Can someone explain it?'
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[IDF] Ken Gillis 14-Nov-20 11:32 AM
It's basically just party games
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 11:32 AM
Its basically online party games
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[IDF] Ken Gillis 14-Nov-20 11:32 AM
Like trivia, or drawing games, stuff like that
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[IDF] Charles Star 14-Nov-20 11:32 AM
oh, cool
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 11:32 AM
they're fun 🙂
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 11:32 AM
Can be done on your mobile device
and you put the stream on your browser
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[IDF] Charles Star 14-Nov-20 11:32 AM
Trivia??? Are you going to put me out of business?
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[IDF] Ken Gillis 14-Nov-20 11:32 AM
It's not Trek Trivia
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 11:33 AM
Not while I'm on the jubilee line.. I've got service but I don't think streaming is going to work something to look at when I get home. Something that will also keep me from football manager
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Storming Norman 14-Nov-20 11:34 AM
Wow I have not been on the underground for years
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 11:35 AM
Jubilee line has wireless all along the tunnels but I am not sure how anyone hears anyone when they take calls
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Storming Norman 14-Nov-20 11:35 AM
Cool
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 11:37 AM
Last year when extinction rebellion was doing there thing, they tried it at West ham.... unfortunately the train was filled with builders. We builders don't mind you protesting but get in the way of us making money or food and we will hide the bodies.
I was on the train behind, we weren't amused. That was on the jubilee line
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 11:45 AM
This is your 15-minute warning
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 11:47 AM
I have a resource I need to add to the resource area later. As I have no wish to try and work out how to do that from my phone
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The Professor 14-Nov-20 11:51 AM
What’s in here now?
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 11:52 AM
Hey there @The Professor - Nova 3 will be here!
Check out #schedule to learn more about what events are taking place today, when and in what room! (edited)
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 11:52 AM
Can't wait for it to start! Really excited.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 11:52 AM
It was our opening ceremonies, but the Nova 3 panel will be starting here in a few minutes.
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[IDF] Charles Star 14-Nov-20 11:54 AM
Room 2 will be Star Trek trivia.
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 11:55 AM
This is your 5-minute warning. Consider moving the conversation to the appropriate overflow room.
======NOVA 3: A SNEAK PEAK======
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The Professor 14-Nov-20 12:00 PM
woo
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:00 PM
Welcome everyone! For those of you who don’t know me, I’m AgentPhoenix and I run Anodyne Productions on top of being the creator of Nova. I was involved with Fall Fest a couple of years ago, so when Alex and Amethyst reached out to me to give an update on Nova 3, I jumped at the chance.
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Nova 3 has been a topic of conversation for a lot of years now (embarrasingly so). It’s obviously being re-written, but I think I’ve re-started building it 3 or 4 times at this point. All that’s behind me though! I’ve been working on Nova 3 very consistently through 2020 and am really excited about the progress and where the software is right now.
For those of you who attended Khitomer a few months back, this will be pretty similar. I want attendees to drive the conversation. You guys and gals are going to be the ones using Nova 3 on a day-to-day basis when it comes out, so I definitely want to reserve a big portion of the hour for people to ask questions and have some conversations about where I'm taking Nova 3.
But before we get to people's questions, I did want to provide a few updates on where things stand currently.
For the last couple of months, I've been working extensively on the storytelling features in Nova 3. That includes stories, post types, and posts themselves. Currently, most of my time is being spent working on building the editor that people will use. There's a lot to it, so it's taking a little longer than I expected, but I think people will be really happy with the writing experience once it's finished.
So far though, I've been able to get a lot of different things wrapped up and working exactly how I want them to... roles and permissions, theme management, positions and departments, ranks (oh my God... I love the new rank system), characters, and users.
Once the storytelling stuff is wrapped up, the next major piece to work on is applications and how GMs and players will review applications. There's some cool ideas that have been running around in my head around applications for a lot of years, so I'm excited for people to see them.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 12:10 PM
That both looks awesome!
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The Professor 14-Nov-20 12:11 PM
What about this new rank system you like sire?
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:11 PM
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Penta 14-Nov-20 12:11 PM
I'm curious as to what sub-episodes are.
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FrostedSiren 14-Nov-20 12:11 PM
Storyboarding style missions/sub-missions? Yes, please.
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 12:11 PM
@The Professor Lets give Agent a chance to present
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 12:11 PM
What is the marker like post?
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:12 PM
No, this is exactly how I like these things to go. The organic nature is what I love about these conversations!
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The Professor 14-Nov-20 12:12 PM
@The Professor Lets give Agent a chance to present
@[PF] Thompson Your saying people can make comments and ask questions and i can’t?
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:13 PM
@The Professor Let's start with your question...
Ranks are made up of 3 different "pieces" now which gives them a massive amount of flexibility
Rank groups, for example, allow you to organize your ranks however you want, which in turn will help when you want to find and assign a rank
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The Professor 14-Nov-20 12:14 PM
Okay i’m in love already
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:15 PM
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June 14-Nov-20 12:15 PM
Will the pictures to be used by names - as an easier option on display instead of the rank image?
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:15 PM
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Penta 14-Nov-20 12:15 PM
yeah, no more going "Oh god, which color am I using for that department?"
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:15 PM
@June Hopefully the last screenshot answers that question
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June 14-Nov-20 12:15 PM
Like <picture> (rank) (name)
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 12:16 PM
Ah, I see - You pick a rank group to their respective division color and then select the rank itself
I like
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 12:16 PM
No more memorizing the list of the order of the colors when you need to select a rank for a character.
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 12:16 PM
Super simple and user friendly
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June 14-Nov-20 12:16 PM
agree
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 12:16 PM
That's awesome! I normally just pick a random rank and fix it later. LOL
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:17 PM
Every rank is also made up of an info record. So no need to change 8 different records if you want it to be Lieutenant J.G. instead of Lieutenant Junior Grade
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Melonna 14-Nov-20 12:17 PM
Hello , what's cooking here
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 12:18 PM
as was just said. A sneek peak into Nova 3.
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:18 PM
And then when you create a rank, you just put it all together...
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Melonna 14-Nov-20 12:18 PM
Cool
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:19 PM
And ranks are now made up of a base image and an overlay image for even more flexibility. Or you can use an integrated image only if you want too.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 12:19 PM
They're seperate!No more needing to manually edit the pips on the base color. (edited)
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:20 PM
So yeah @The Professor I'm pretty jazzed about ranks 😉
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[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 14-Nov-20 12:20 PM
raises hand
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The Professor 14-Nov-20 12:21 PM
I can see why... Their beautiful
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[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 14-Nov-20 12:21 PM
Will "Xtras" continue to partner with the same source for the rank image pieces?
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:22 PM
@Penta @FrostedSiren Nova 3 treats stories more like you actually think of stories on your game... as a timeline. All stories exist on a single timeline, so you can put a story anywhere on the timeline you want, including inside of another story if you want. I've removed the idea of "mission groups" and instead just allowed you to nest stories inside stories, so you can actually use a story as a group... like Season 1 or a longer story arc or whatever you want. Tons of flexibility.
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Penta 14-Nov-20 12:22 PM
Ah, neat.
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:23 PM
@[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 We will have Kuro's ranks on the Xtras site and available for download, but they will not be the default for any of our installations.
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[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 14-Nov-20 12:23 PM
What will be the default?
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Penta 14-Nov-20 12:24 PM
Big question: Are we going to have to rebuild sites from scratch, or will sites be somewhat compatible with Nova 2 datasets?
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June 14-Nov-20 12:24 PM
Ooo, 🥰 the stories one! that's more so how many independents work ❤️ Love ❤️ Love it!
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FrostedSiren 14-Nov-20 12:24 PM
I love it.
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:24 PM
So when creating a new story, you have more options about how you want it organized
@[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 Right now the plan for ship with a couple of great sets that @[22] greenfelt made. I think he has some plans to add some more as well. They work much better at higher resolutions than Kuro's.
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Kylindra 14-Nov-20 12:26 PM
mm. I assume the date field in there is for real world dates, and you'd put the in universe dates in the story info?
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[22] greenfelt 14-Nov-20 12:27 PM
Yup. DS9 duty, VOY duty, and TNG duty are almost ready to ship with plans for more.
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FrostedSiren 14-Nov-20 12:27 PM
As a person with tritanopia who has severe trouble with discerning the default skin on Nova 2, I'm curious what the default skin color is? (to quote Ryan Reynolds. "Please don't make the supersuit green.")
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:27 PM
@[16th Fleet] Kate So markers are a way to "mark" specific points in the story... like transitioning location or timeline
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 12:28 PM
Cool!
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:28 PM
@Penta What do you mean "compatible with Nova 2 datasets"?
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Penta 14-Nov-20 12:28 PM
IE: Will we be able to migrate over posts and etc from Nova 2, or no?
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:29 PM
@Kylindra Correct, those dates at the story level are for knowing when the story was started and ended.
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Kylindra 14-Nov-20 12:29 PM
ooh, neat
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:30 PM
@Penta There will be a migration script to move as much data as we can, but in some cases, we simply won't be able to accurately move everything. There will be more information about what will and won't be able to be migrated as we get closer to a public release.
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Penta 14-Nov-20 12:31 PM
Okay, thanks
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:31 PM
@FrostedSiren The admin side of the system will not be themeable, but I'll be providing a light and dark version, so each person can choose what they want to use.
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FrostedSiren 14-Nov-20 12:32 PM
Bless.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 12:32 PM
Great, so we don't need to start from scratch when we switch over to Nova 3.
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:32 PM
There's also a lot more attention being paid to accessibility with colors so we don't have stuff that's too light on a light background or too dark on a dark background
@[16th Fleet] Kate Nope. The major stuff will be able to be moved over I think
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 12:33 PM
Oh that's going to be awesome then! I know it was a concern a lot of people had.
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June 14-Nov-20 12:33 PM
@AgentPhoenix Will there be a way to add members and save without them being removed or having to put in their part. Like say if the log was written in an email or on discord?
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:35 PM
@June It's not an area that I've gotten to building yet, but I know that post participants has caused some issues in the past, so I'm going to pay careful attention to that when I get to it
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June 14-Nov-20 12:36 PM
Thank you.
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[PE] Alexander 14-Nov-20 12:36 PM
@AgentPhoenix a question I've had about Nova 3 for a while. As you know, a lot of fleets and orgs have moved to software suites like WordPress that offer a lot of integration and customization. I myself am for example working on a plugin suite that would essentially turn any WordPress into a fleet management system. Has there been any thought in providing some kind of API so as an example, a member sim could be tied directly into an organization management system?
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:37 PM
Post types is another major new feature that creates a huge amount of power and flexibility for games. Previously, the different types of posts you could have were hard-coded into the system, but with Nova 3, those are completely configurable
You can specify the fields that display for the post type (as well as if it's required to have a value or if it should suggest a value from a previous post of the same type)
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June 14-Nov-20 12:37 PM
Would this also be mobile friendly to use?
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:38 PM
As well as a series of options for behaviors posts of that type should have/follow
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The Professor 14-Nov-20 12:38 PM
Discord?! Oooooo
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:39 PM
@[PE] Alexander There will be a public API for every Nova 3 installation, but it likely won't be available until Nova 3.1 or 3.2. I just don't believe it's something that needs to be present for a full public release.
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June 14-Nov-20 12:39 PM
Are you going to have discord be easily displayed on the software on the site?
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:39 PM
@June Yep, every page is designed to work on mobile as well as desktop
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[PE] Alexander 14-Nov-20 12:39 PM
Oh yeah that's definitely true, just wanted to know if it was on the roadmap at all 🙂
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The Professor 14-Nov-20 12:39 PM
Guess it’s a bot that’s join the server and dms you
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:41 PM
@June Nope. If you want something like that for your installation, you'll need to do that work. All that Nova will do is send messages to the Discord server you configure.
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June 14-Nov-20 12:42 PM
I've seen discords be displayed on sites, using the widget side, why I was asking.
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 12:43 PM
So, based on the dashboard, it appears you may be going away from features like specifications, deck listing, tours, things of that nature. Will Nova 3 still be compatible and come equipped with a Wiki for RPG's to display this information?
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 12:44 PM
That My Notes section, can you send notes to be public, private or only to certains roles?
Please don't say the wiki will be gone. I don't think I can go without one.
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 12:45 PM
This is your 15-minute warning
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:46 PM
@Deleted User Correct, I'm removing those types of features because they're a little too genre specific. There's a potential opportunity to add them back in through a more educational means by doing a blog series or screencast series about how to build advanced extensions for Nova 3. Also, the wiki is being removed as well, but you'll be able to add new pages significantly easier in Nova 3, so you would be able to add information for users that way.
Sorry Kate!
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 12:46 PM
Understood, thanks! 🙂
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:47 PM
@[16th Fleet] Kate For the initial release, notes are private only. In the future, I'll be expanding them to allow for sharing notes as read-only, shared editing, etc.
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 12:47 PM
So, what I'm really taking away from Nova 3 is that, beyond everything else sim-management-wise, this iteration is focused on story-telling first and foremost
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[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 14-Nov-20 12:47 PM
Do we have any sort of ETA on public release?
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June 14-Nov-20 12:47 PM
Will you be able to add widgets to certain areas in nova 3?
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:48 PM
@Deleted User Right now the focus is heavily on story-telling, but there are other big features on the horizon. Application review is a pretty seismic change... the page manager will make creating and editing pages significantly easier... forms will be getting a pretty major overhaul... reporting will be very dynamic...
Storytelling is just one of the biggest things people want to talk about, so it was prioritized early in development.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 12:50 PM
Guess I need to figure out then how to create a page. Without a wiki.
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 12:50 PM
Most excellent!
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:50 PM
@[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 No ETA. I'm just building until it feels right. I don't want to put timeframes on it that will cause things to be rushed or corners to be cut.
@June I'm not sure yet. The dashboard may end up being a little more widget-ized so you can customize what you see, but again, that would likely be something after 3.0
@[16th Fleet] Kate Don't worry, it'll be super easy 😉
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Penta 14-Nov-20 12:51 PM
App review: I am salivating at that for multiple GM sims like WAR. Details?
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June 14-Nov-20 12:52 PM
Will Nova 3 be able to support other Genre that uses Nova for their games, like Firefly, Star Wars, etc. ?
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:54 PM
@Penta High level... an application comes in and the GM is added as a reviewer. As a GM, you can also specify rules that apply based on what position the user is applying for (for example, you could add your Chief Engineer to the review if anyone applies for a position within Engineering). You then have a single place to review the bio and discuss with other reviewers about the application. You'll be able to quickly email the applicant, reviewers can vote on the application, and then ultimately you can accept/reject right from there. And everything is saved for historical purposes.
But find me in #overflow-one afterwards if you want to discuss more @Penta
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 12:55 PM
This is your 5-minute warning. Consider moving the conversation to the appropriate overflow room.
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Penta 14-Nov-20 12:55 PM
Will do! (Now salivating even more!)
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 12:56 PM
So much drool here in room one - y'all are keeping my bucket and mop very busy at the moment
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 12:56 PM
That sounds great as well.
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:56 PM
@June Yep. I'm not sure how many genres we will have for download, but there are some interesting ideas brewing around being able to create and share genres (especially useful for fleets who want to standardize how their Nova games are setup)
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June 14-Nov-20 12:57 PM
Thank you. I think this new nova will be very interesting.
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:57 PM
So there's the 5 minute warning. As always with these panels, this has been really awesome and I’m happy to continue the conversation in #overflow-one with anyone who wants to keep it going. Before I head out though, I wanted to give people some information about keeping up with Anodyne and ways to support Anodyne going forward.
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[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 14-Nov-20 12:57 PM
Is there a place where we can keep up to date with development? IE you mention starting over and that's the first I'd heard of it.
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:58 PM
I recognize some of the names here from the Anodyne Discord server, but for those of you who don’t know about it, I’d love to have you join us on that server. It’s hands down the fastest way to get help from the community with Nova 2. In addition, I have channels in there for Nova 3 where I share lots of screenshots of things I’m working on, I ask questions and look for feedback as I’m building Nova 3. I’d love to have folks come over and join the discussions there.
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[22] greenfelt 14-Nov-20 12:58 PM
There’s also a patreon for those who want earlier access to updates.
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 12:59 PM
Also, a while back I launched a Patreon for Anodyne for people to pitch in if they want to help Anodyne. All of the costs for running Anodyne come out of my own pocket and I’m happy to do that, but if anyone is interested in becoming a patron, you can do so here. Patreons get additional access and even get regular zip files with the latest work to try out on their own servers or local computers.
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:00 PM
Thank you so so so much for presenting a wonderful panel, @AgentPhoenix - I'm super excited to continue seeing Nova 3 develop and cannot wait to play a bit with the new system. Your time is greatly appreciated!
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AgentPhoenix 14-Nov-20 01:00 PM
I think that about wraps it up for me, so thanks everyone for joining me today and thanks to @[PF] AlexM and @[PF] Amethyst for putting on Fall Fest X. Have a great rest of the day!
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 01:00 PM
======WORLD CREATION======
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 01:01 PM
So firstly. Im going to give everyone 2 mins to stretch their legs and grab a drink. Ill kick off at 1802
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:02 PM
Thank you, @[PF] Thompson!
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 01:06 PM
Ok greetings folks. My name is Thompson/Radamere. I'm currently simming as part of Pegasus Fleet but Ive been around in BF/Alpha Fleet and have done a lot of Live action RP in game worlds such as Arma 3 Life. This presentation will have chances for Q&A in it but feel free to comment or add as we go. Questions will be answered after each section.
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:06 PM
Most excellent!
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 01:06 PM
The ‘world’ your RPG is set in is arguably one of the most important aspects, especially for longevity. It provides context, backdrop and something for you and your players to explore along with much more besides. This discussion will look at what we feel are the three main blocks of how you build your world. Beginning with the Wider world, moving onto breaking that down and ending with your local bubble within that world. =
Whether you are one of the many Trekkies here today, who will use the vast array of lore and world building already done for you, or someone setting out to create their own D&D fantasy world I want to begin by stressing that but the established, and the new, should look to each other. One of the biggest pitfalls we can encounter as GM’s from whatever background we come from is to either stick to rigidly to our canon world that our players are unable to manipulate it, or the opposite, to leave the world we have our players in so devoid of a wider world that what they do feels like it has no impact on anything. We need to give players room to be creative, be in awe as they discover the world and, give them a sense that their actions, their roleplay will have far reaching consequences. So how do we do that as we think about our game worlds?
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Your wider game world is if you like, the container for which everything else you do is held within. Your first job is to come up with a theme. Do you want to be set in a historical medieval world? Or perhaps you like the idea of having your players explore the galaxy and fly throughout space. Whichever you decide, it will be the beginning of your wider world. I personally am a space nut. So let’s go from there. I want a galaxy, full of planets and starsystems, different races and empires. No details yet, just the rough framework for our container. I'm going to call this Galaxy ‘Fallfestia’. It's going to be a small galaxy, four arm spiral in shape with the arms having a very sparse density of worlds, but the area surrounding the galactic core being more densely littered with systems.
. You can see that I’ve not gone into specifics. I'm just building the big wider game world for backdrop, and already, hopefully, you'll have an image in your heads of what the galaxy might look like. If you were doing this for a single planet as that's the biggest your world will go, is the planet made of ice? Is it a desert? Maybe it has large polar caps and a tropical equator. These things you put into your framework will shape how your wider world develops. If your ever unsure about how your wider world should look, I actively encourage you to look at existing canons. Setting up a space game world? Look to startrek, starwars, EVE online and many more. Medieval world? You can use our own planet as an example, you can look to game of thrones or some of the worlds created in various D&D books. The material is out there that you can use as a guide. . (edited)
Anyone any questions?
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:10 PM
Not at the moment, no!
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 01:10 PM
Moving on then 🙂
But what if you're using an existing world and canon? Surely it's all handed to you on a platter and you can just roll with that right off the shelf? Well yes and no. As the many folks here from the Trek RP groups will know, we have it pretty good when it comes to a wider game world. We use our own galaxy, it's divided up nicely into quadrants and methods of travel and the laws of nature are pretty well laid out. As mentioned earlier however we have to be conscious that we don’t let it become a cage. Whether it be Trek or Lord of the rings, Battlestar or Game of thrones, the moment your players start telling a story in there then that world is your own. As GM’s and players we must not be afraid to mold it, change it, contribute to it and even rip parts of it to pieces. The last thing we want is for our characters and players to be unable to make a difference or impact in the world. I’ll give you an example. .
In 2009 Nutrek was released. In the Trek RP groups there was a combination of uproar and celebration at the shakeup and destruction of the Hobus star. Some people were excited at the new opportunities for story telling while others were upset their worlds were shaken up in such a way. Whatever your opinion on this was however it doesn’t detract from the fact that those who were responsible for the wider trek world made a decision to take their creation, and at a more broken down level which we will get to shortly, change it in an extreme way. These sudden changes have produced as a result massive amounts of content via games, films, tv shows and even our own writing. .
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:12 PM
That's so very true
Even with all of the perks having a well developed genre presents, sometimes it feels too restrictive and stagnation occurs
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 01:13 PM
I want to elaborate on that a bit more as well with a comment on our real world technological advancement and imagination
Using TOS as an example, we had what were at the time very fancy flip switches and buttons. Everything was futuristic for the time. However we are already well past there. There has been in the past arguements that Enterprise under Archer shouldn't have had some of the fancy displays and consoles they had because it predated Kirk. I think its important, especially with established canon. To update our expectations of what would be possible, as our own technological foundation expands, especially in universes which base themselves in our future.
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. So. To sum up this section. Whether your using your own baby world, or an existing ancient canon, its vastly important to make sure your players are aware of the big picture and where they fit into it and for both GM’s and players to be afraid to impact and change in through the RP. This big picture is hugely important to making your world feel real and alive. . Any questions or any world ideas people would like to ask how you might do a wider framework on?
Or any other thoughts as well
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:17 PM
I think primarily, how do we, as GM's and players, who write in a well-established universe of canon, not do anything that could infringe on it?
Like, can we honor what's been created for us while at the same time introducing something incredibly new and dynamic?
And, if so, how do we convince the diehards to join in on the new and dynamic? How do we make it appealing without sacrificing the genre?
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 01:19 PM
I'd just like to add to Thompson's last comment with the incredible rate that our own technology is advancing, I think it's great that Star Trek is continuing to update its look. Because let's be honest, the flip switches and jelly buttons just doesn't feel like our future anymore. Not when the Crew-Dragon has touch screen controls today.
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 01:20 PM
So within an existing canon you have a set expectation
Ill use starfleet as an example
It's entirely possible, to write a new plot line for your fleet or writing group that expands the universe. Whats important is that you stick to the base building blocks set out by your framework. If your writing a plot line for a Trek Group, it needs to feel like Starfleet would do that. It needs to stick to the character of the race, how they move and travel. Theres a lot of material available to back up the actions there
So as long as the intent from the core material is still there, IE Klingons arent suddenly all farmers. You'll be keeping the world that the hard core player wants alive while allowing you to make it your own
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Essentially each episode of a TV show is just that
They take the core principles for the crew, the races of the crew, those basic building blocks, and they expand them and adapt them slowly
Hopefully that makes sense
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:24 PM
It does indeed
Thank you!
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 01:25 PM
This next section should help identify those core features
. Alrighty. So breaking down the wider world. Once youve for your framework and container you have to fill it. I'm going to this time use a world set in a steampunk setting. The planet is mostly Ice, with a narrow belt of fertile land for forming along the equator. There are mountains across it as well as four large oceans and other bodies of water, some of which exist in a perma frost and others in a seasonal state. There are mountain ranges across the planet as well as several active volcanoes. The world is called Escomi. That's our container for this world.
. So first when breaking down a world you need to divide it up. Our own planet is a good example of this. Multiple continents spread around which you can then begin to populate. This is important as it starts to fill in the details of your world or universe that your creating. You can’t place factions or empires until you have somewhere to put them right?
. So given we are in a steampunk style world, and, we have three continents that are sometimes accessible by land and others at sea I want to decide how my people travel. I'm going to use airships as one of the primary modes of transports, along with icebreaker ironwood ships. If you set in space, do you use hyperdrive or warp engines? Or maybe you take EVE onlines approach where you use warp drives for your local navigation, massive jump gates to move between systems and regions of space and then an internal jump drive for your massive capital ships. How you move about your world is important. It allows you to dictate how fast your players can travel, how quickly the world can react to changes both from your players or from you as the GM, and also sets the pace. Its pretty easy to go on a quest around a planet if you can teleport. But if you have to sail in a ship through a layer of ice? Well thats a whole other story. (edited)
. Alongside transport is communication. How do your people communicate? Trek uses mostly subspace communication sending messages via relays which is essentially a futuristic version of the Fires of Gondor from Lord of the Rings. Like transportation this helps set your pace and allows you to isolate or integrate your characters. .
How these kind of building blocks are setup, will determine how the story unfolds, and allows for different types of plot twists. Maybe while on the ice ship you get stuck or there is a food shortage? Or perhaps someone has destroyed a key Jump gate that everyone uses to travel.
. Next I want to talk about resources. Whether it be magic, iron ore or oxygen what resources are in your world are important to set out early on. These will be what your equipment, buildings, food, basically anything in your world in a really detailed level will be drawn from. For our steampunk world we have Ironwood as a primary resources. But we also have mountains full of other ores which are more mouldable. This allows us to make gears and intricate mechanisms that wood would not allow. Food comes from two sources. Animals have evolved to burrow down into the ground with a wide variety of herbivores and carnivores which live in the snow. Other animals live in the fertile green belt where crops and fruits are also grown. All the nations recognise the importance of this belt and so no mining or heavy industry takes place here making it largely rural. This is the point where your are starting to get the padding into your world. This will dictate where settlements will appear, where nations will focus on defending and building and where/what trade will flow.
. In other words, once you have your resources, transport, communications, and other similar building blocks in place, you have the basis for how your nations will respond and react on the bigger level to each other, which will in turn affect your players on their adventures.
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. Lastly for the middle section I want to touch on the nations. These should in my opinion be the last pieces you place into the bigger details of the world. Doing them beforehand forces you to make the world to fit them, when in reality they are the most flexible part of your entire world. Whether it's in space, or on a single planet, and no matter the species, we all adapt and make use of what we have available. As such. Place your nations/factions/empires last. Decide on something unique about each of them, for example the Klingons are warriors, the Romulans are sneaky and prefer to hide in the shadows while Starfleet prefere diplomacy. Giving each faction/race a unique hook, helps create a distinct divide and allows for interesting moments in your world later on.
. Its important to note. All of these big wider building blocks must be used together, to create the life within your world. Whatever you decide them to be they are what will shape the heros and villians and the kings and slaves.
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:34 PM
I never really thought about it in that way
When I was developing the Amenite's, I thought first about the creature/species before thinking about the wider-world - I built their realm directly around them.
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Kylindra 14-Nov-20 01:35 PM
mm. I tend to do the same. I think of the conflict I want, then build up from there. (for example, I usually come up with the nation concept first, then build a world that allows such a nation to exist.)
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:35 PM
It may have been easier to develop the wider world, before focusing on the species themselves
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 01:35 PM
So for focused development
That can totally work
Your species almost becomes the world
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:36 PM
Indeed
Does that make sense if the species/world is mission-centric and you may never visit them again in the future?
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 01:37 PM
And then you start looking at what they need, right from where they live, climate culture, working down to tools, instruments, food and so on
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 01:37 PM
I think they go hand in hand. Sometimes the world does grow from the species or the characters.
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 01:38 PM
I think the template works either way
Wider world > Big breakdown > Details
The wider world can be just the species
and you can write as much as you need to for the purpose of the mission
it can also be as Kylindra said a conflict
That conflict is the wider world.
So then you start to fill in the big pieces, who are the players, what are they fighting over, hows the area setup. Before going into details such as what ships do they have. What stations.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 01:40 PM
I think when you're especially looking at a one-off, working backwards is the way to go.
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:40 PM
So, it's really moldable based on what you're trying to accomplish at that time
I like
I like, a lot
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 01:40 PM
Its the same principal which ever direction
Broad Picture > Broad Details > Specific details
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:41 PM
nods
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 01:41 PM
Ultimately, I think that brainstorming/creation has to be whatever works for you. For example, when I create a character, I have to know the world and fit the character's motives, etc, into the world. A friend of my starts from the premise of a name and its meaning and goes the other way. There is no RIGHT way to create, whether it is world or character, so long as you can build something.
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 01:41 PM
Alright. I’m going to pass over to Alex here who is going to talk about the local world using specific examples from his group. This is the most detailed level you go to in world building. It is the most detailed for one simple reason. THIS is where your players' characters exist. Everything else leads to the Local World.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 01:42 PM
Thanks
. Creating the local world can be critical for any sim, but so much so for a stationary sim, such as a starbase or a colony. When I’m talking about the local world, I don’t just mean the immediate setting. I know most of us here are probably coming from a Star Trek setting. So let’s use a good Star Trek example. When the Enterprise visits the planet of the week, we’re usually not treated to true world building in the sense that we’ve been talking about. Sure, there’s a world to be built, but we’re not going to see a lot of that world before we move on to the next planet of the week. That’s not what we’re talking about here.
. When we talk about the local area, we’re talking more about the world of Deep Space 9. Part of what made DS9 so special was that it thrived on the world around it. Sure, the station itself was incredibly important. Like all of the Star Trek shows, the station was just as much a character as any member of the crew. And DS9 was wonderful with its character driven plots. But try to imagine that series without Bajor. Without the wormhole. Without the geopolitics between the Bajorans and the Cardassians.
. It’s no different on a stationary sim. Over in Pegasus Fleet I run a starbase sim, Starbase 332. When we’ve operated at our strongest it’s because we’re leaning heavily on the local area, and the identity of that local area. Starbase 332 is in part of the Federation that we’ve called the “Galactic South”. We call it the Galactic South because it’s “south” of Earth, with “north” of Earth being in the direction of the galactic center, at least based on the Pegasus Fleet maps. It’s located in the Beta Quadrant, near Klingon and Gorn space, and in the neighborhood of the Tholians. The station is in orbit of the planet Archa IV, a resort world similar in many respects to Risa. We’re several light years from the 11th Fleet Headquarters on Cestus III, far enough that we are operating fairly independently, but not so far away that we don’t have close contact with the fleet brass. Since we’re on the edge of the Federation frontier, we have a lot of traffic from starships, freighters, and passenger ships coming in from the frontier, or heading out to explore. We’re the last stop for gas, if you will.
. Starbase 332 sits at the center of what I’ve called the Archan Sector. Nearby is a region of space claimed by the Ritorians, our main geopolitical rivals. We had a story arc a few years ago focusing on the Sojourners, an upstart political organization that was causing trouble in the region. They allied themselves with the Ritorians, who used their new Sojourner friends to gain power for themselves. Now the Ritorians remain rivals in the region after the fall of the Sojourners. (edited)
. I told you about all of that not to brag, but to point out how much time and effort was spent on the local area around the station. I’ve told you nothing about the station itself. You don’t know its size or its class, but that’s almost not as important as the greater universe around it.
. For sims thinking about a stationary setting, like a starbase, a colony, or even a city or fort if you’re thinking about a non-Star Trek sim, the surrounding region may be even more important than the immediate setting. It becomes not just a critical part of the sim, but also a valuable storytelling tool. The local area is something that you can develop over time, but considering the local area early in the life of your sim will serve you well. Developing and evolving that landscape over time is part of the fun.
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 01:45 PM
This is your 15-minute warning
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 01:45 PM
. Those neighboring worlds and civilizations define so much of what we do on a sim like that. It enriches our experience by making it feel more alive and less isolated. And of course this goes beyond just the surrounding region. Consider the recurring characters. Who are the movers and shakers? All of it adds flavor to your world.
. Any thoughts or questions on creating your local world?
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:45 PM
Yes!
How do you make sure your world is uniquely different than the other stations in the fleet? What makes your world special rather than a dime-a-dozen? (edited)
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 01:47 PM
Good question. I think most of that really does come down to the local area. What is the role of your station? Where is it located? Is it in a region with a lot of conflict? Is it on the edge of explored space?
As I mentioned with my station, it's a commercial hub situated over a resort planet. It has a lot of traffic coming in and out, and it's the last major starbase on that side of the Federation.
Thompson's starbase, on the other hand, is in a somewhat contested area that's already congested with a lot of other in character stations. So what sets him apart more is the station's purpose, which is that of a rescue and salvage station.
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:50 PM
nods
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 01:51 PM
Stations are always going to be set apart by the local politics. Since the station (usually) doesn't get to travel much, the surrounding region really is part of the sim's identity.
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:51 PM
It is, isn't it
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 01:51 PM
And its the detail you put into that surrounding area
and the life you give it
that then feeds back into the kind of traffic the base gets, the kind of visitors you get
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:51 PM
Okay, so, I have another question
How do you world-build without it become so complicated and convoluted that a new player joining doesn't feel like they have to play a whole lot of catch-up to hit the ground running? How do you keep the richness of your creation from intimidating others?
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 01:53 PM
Another good question.
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 01:53 PM
So I layer mine
The top layer by way of example is where the region Im in
In my case its close to the cardassian DMZ. I have the federation to my back and Starfleet to the front
I then break that down, Starbase, Nearby colonies other bases
And lastly on my wiki Ill put the extensive details on those, that can be read as a player needs them
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Kylindra 14-Nov-20 01:54 PM
I've found having a quick primer available for the most immediately useful info, then deeper dives as people want more specific info. Sort of like how fantasy books have a 10 page background, and then use the rest of the books to explore the rest of the world
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 01:55 PM
Yea basically
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 01:55 PM
This is your 5-minute warning. Consider moving the conversation to the appropriate overflow room.
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:55 PM
Ooooo
Great tip, @Kylindra
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 01:55 PM
Its back to again Broad Picture > Broad Details > Specific details
Your advert will give a broad picture
whent hey talk to you or visit the website it should be the broad details
and then youll have you heavy details for hwen they need them
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:56 PM
Most excellent! (edited)
I know one of the reasons why I tend to avoid stations or fantasy games is because there's a richness to the world from the very onset that is both exciting and incredibly daunting
I like the notion of bite-sized bits with additional resources available when the player is ready to dive deep
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 01:58 PM
I think that's a very good point to make, and one of which stationary sim GMs should take note. Because COs and GMs want their games to be approachable for new players, so having a good way to break that world down into bite-sized chunks will help with that a lot.
👍 2
💯 1
We're probably about to get kicked from here. So let's move any other questions to the overflow room.
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 01:59 PM
I have this room next I beleive
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 01:59 PM
Thank you, Thompson, for the information.
Oh right, you do, haha.
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 01:59 PM
Thank you so much, @[PF] AlexM and @[PF] Thompson - This was a freaking awesome panel!
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[PF] CorCordale 14-Nov-20 01:59 PM
I'll just rename this "Thompson's Place - Room One"
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 02:00 PM
======YOUR WRITING TOOLBOX======
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[PF] CorCordale 14-Nov-20 02:00 PM
I agree. As someone who has dabbled in world building and such, I found it very informative
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:00 PM
I have like 2 backup presentations ready to go and everything
like I could camp here all night
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[PF] CorCordale 14-Nov-20 02:01 PM
I'll bring you coffee
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:02 PM
Alright. Your writing Toolbox. This presentation is going to be a lot more of a discussion and a chance to debate and learn from each other. Im going to ask some questions or give a statement. And I'd like to hear opinions from you folks on what you think about them. Ill also give my thoughts as well of course. So feelf ree to chime in and ask questions at any point
👍 1
. So my first question is something I'm actually using on my own group. Here we go. "Does the GM/Owner of the group always need to be the Commanding Officer/Ruler? And do any other assistants need to be Executive Officers/Other Rulers?"
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 02:04 PM
I think it's both a bit of yes and a bit of no
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 02:05 PM
It doesn't always have to be. The GM could also be the Yeoman LOL
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[IDF] Ken Gillis 14-Nov-20 02:05 PM
I've run roleplays before where the GM (me) played as OPFOR (Opposing Force) and GM, while another player played as CO
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 02:05 PM
But I think it could/should be GM preference I guess (edited)
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 02:05 PM
I think it depends a lot on the focus of the sim. Sometimes it makes more sense for the commanding officer character to just be someone in the background.
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 02:06 PM
I think that yes, they do need to be in a command position. But they need to take a back seat beyond giving orders. There are players who won't follow the game if the GM isn't in charge OR playing a strictly narrator role.
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:06 PM
Killian hit on something I was waiting to see
One of the strongest tools in our toolbox, are the GM's and any Assistants we have. On some level. You as a GM need to be involved in a way that can help steer the direction
In trek sims we have it easy
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 02:08 PM
I've had the XO position OOC be someone else then the IC XO and when we had the opportunity to change it we did because being the IC XO gave him way more options to write. To interact with everyone
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:08 PM
However your XO IC may not be your XO OOC.
Exactly that Kate. I stopped typing halfway to check if you had my notes 😛
Im using my XO IC slot as a way to grow Characters
And my XO OOC is a department head, alowing them to help steer the story
As Killian Mentioned. As the GM. Its our job to keep the story going and narrating it. So we need to be in a position IC to do that, but not necessarily the CO. Ken Gillis Example is a good showing of that
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 02:11 PM
Something that I've run into on my starbase is that the larger the setting of the sim, the less likely it is that the department heads are going to be in the trenches.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 02:11 PM
That's where NPC's are for.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 02:11 PM
Sometimes a NPC or PNPC makes more sense as the IC department head, while the de facto department head is a different character that's actually running the show.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 02:12 PM
I've also heard of that setup being used.
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:12 PM
. So this one is a statement. Im not saying its my view. But Its a statement. "Players should only have a single main character that they should focus on other than some very limited NPC's."
.
What do we think about that?
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Kylindra 14-Nov-20 02:13 PM
mm. I' know people who have a host of characters.. and I find it does tend to gum up the works when all of their characters get involved.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 02:13 PM
I think it depends on the setting.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 02:13 PM
I don't agree, but then again I'm biased. I have about 20ish NPC's.
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Kylindra 14-Nov-20 02:13 PM
on the flip side, depending on how you use the characters (as ways to reflect other characters), I see the utility
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 02:13 PM
And that would be something I disagree with entirely... The use of NPCs throughout the ship, whether they're officer or even NCO characters, gives the writer more of an opportunity to be involved, especially if the mission/objective in question doesn't directly relate to their primary character
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 02:14 PM
It all depends on how well the player is about playing the different characters. If they have trouble keeping up, then cut it down. If they can handle it and the characters are diverse enough, I say go for it. But for new players, one character only until they get the hang of it.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 02:14 PM
As a starbase CO, I have about a dozen different characters in various departments. That said, I'm the GM, so I have those characters so I can be involved in all of those other departments and help drive parts of the mission with those characters since so often it isn't practical for my CO to be involved.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 02:15 PM
Me too.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 02:15 PM
But I also have way more secondary characters than anyone else on the sim. And I'm fully aware that it's difficult to really develop any of them unless I give them the focus for a mission or two.
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Kylindra 14-Nov-20 02:16 PM
I have at most 3 characters in the sim I'm in. Two I play just to add to the storyline, so they aren't usually active in mission-time
(118 usually divides it's sims up into 'mission-time' and 'shore-leave', and I try my hardest not to add more characters to scenes in the first.)
(a 9-person scene in NOVA sims is normal, but when you use PBeM, a 9-person scene causes scenes to drag.)
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 02:16 PM
And in my own opinion, just because someone uses NPCs on a sim doesn't mean each and every one will be deeply involved in each and every plot... Sometimes they can be used to support another person's character or in character development, or just to spark another idea into the equation of the mission/storyline
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 02:17 PM
I barely ever use multiple of my own characters to a story.
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Kylindra 14-Nov-20 02:17 PM
yeah, that's a good point about NPCs.
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FrostedSiren 14-Nov-20 02:17 PM
. . . I have a good/bad habit of investing very heavily into NPCs lol
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:18 PM
Quite the variety of responces there. Im going to sort of bullet points this: 1. NPC's/PC's are key to giving your world, whether trek or medieval life. Otherwise its just you and your band of merry men. 2. Tactical use of NPC's/PC's either by letting another player take the role as the villian, or using one to nudge a mission, is one of our GM tools to help keep the flow going when things get gummed up. 3. How many PC's and NPC's you use is different from one group to the next. A defiant class can get away with 1 PC per player. A starbase likely will not. Its up to you the GM and player to decide what works for you.
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[PF] Virtam 14-Nov-20 02:18 PM
I think it also depends on whether your sim is more of a storytelling group or an RPG. Each influences the role that NPCs have (and how much work it takes).
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 02:19 PM
Shhh, save that one for a couple of hours.
😛
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 02:19 PM
An NPC is also how long you intend to use. Is it part of the crew that is sometimes needed? A fleet admiral that occassionally drop by, or an enemy you use once.
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[PF] Virtam 14-Nov-20 02:20 PM
Shhh, save that one for a couple of hours.
Sorry, @[PF] AlexM 😛
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:21 PM
. Alright. Another question this time. "How far can you take your roadblocks?" Roadblocks being events you as the GM put in place to cause problems for players they need to solve.
Should that roadblock be allowed to develop into a whole side story? or even potentially derail the main plot?
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 02:22 PM
I think that would depend on the cohesiveness of your players... If they work well together and coordinate, you can make it more complicated and complex, but if they tend to be solo writers, making it tougher would make it far harder to solve IC unless you wave the magic GM wand
And I'd think it would also depend on how willing the players are to take a chance and dive after the roadbloack.. I've seen sims get stuck for weeks because no one was willing to put forward an idea
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 02:24 PM
Well solo writing is fine, but if that roadblock is a technical issue, Operations and Engineering do ten to have to work together. Sometimes other departments are involved if that technical issue concerns them. As GM you can guide that
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 02:24 PM
I think that it depends on your players. Some crews can handle roadblocks easily and so they are more like a speedbump. And some don't handle them well at all making the roadblocks become an avalanche that is there for months. You have to know your crew or sim group, to know which why they are taken and plan for it.
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:25 PM
Do we think they are necessary to keep a plot interesting?
Or should the plot be interesting enough itself (edited)
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 02:25 PM
Nopes, I never use roadblock on my sim.
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 02:25 PM
I do find it helpful to have sideoplots. Sometimes there are missions that don't involve the entire crew.
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 02:25 PM
Not necessarily, but I think they can be used to rekindle a plot that's just slid to a slow stop
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:26 PM
@[16th Fleet] Kate interested to hear why for discussion sake if you dont mind
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 02:27 PM
You also need to gauge how much of a roadblock you want to use. If you are a resupply mission, a roadblock could be a distress call and that can either become the main plot or be a side plot to slow down the delivery of the supplies. So it's all circumstantial.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 02:27 PM
I guess I always see roadblocks as part of the plot. Not so much something to trip the players up, but a critical part of the path.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 02:28 PM
We don't really need them. We have multiple mission going on at once.
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:28 PM
Thats fair
And a good point
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 02:28 PM
One main mission for evryone to write in and then about six side mission.
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FrostedSiren 14-Nov-20 02:28 PM
I'm kinda with Kate. The "anything for a post" method allows people to be a bit more free. It encourages creativity and doesn't frustrate people in positions that are roadblocked in from posting
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:30 PM
So ive a few thoughts on the roadblock tool: 1. It needs to be tailored to your crew. It should match their style, and ability. 2. They should be tactical and not used just for the sake of it. That includes not using any if theyre not required. 3. They should never be allowed to drag on. Evolve into a sub plot yes, but never drag on to the point he main story festers out.
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 02:31 PM
A question about roadblocks: How would you go about removing a roadblock you felt was necessary if it turns out no one is willing or able to do something about it IC?
Again, there's the magic GM wand, but I've always felt that's a cop-out rather than a legitimate tool to get rid of something
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 02:31 PM
LOL. Sim magic....or Q.
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:32 PM
So tactical NPC usage, to write out a resolution, or to let it resolve in a narrated way would be my personal method of removing it (edited)
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[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 14-Nov-20 02:32 PM
@Mikey- Rozia I would use a GM NPC to write a post to fix the roadblock
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 02:33 PM
@[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 Agreed, something I've done on occasion to help out a GM before, I've tended to contact them OOC first with my potential solution before being given the go-ahead to do it
But... Still, wishing there were an easier way to get the rest of the crew involved in it
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[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 14-Nov-20 02:34 PM
@Mikey- Rozia I meant AS the GM... as a player.. that's a tough question.
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:34 PM
I think if a player wants to help move a roadblock
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FrostedSiren 14-Nov-20 02:34 PM
Alternatively, by including other writers in your storyboarding process, you open up the possibility that they macguffin it for you.
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:34 PM
then thats partially the point of putting it in in the first place
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[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 14-Nov-20 02:34 PM
I employ that tactical nuking of a JP starter sent to each player.
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 02:34 PM
I tend to think in both manners! I used to be a GM but am currently not one at the moment (time and website factors)
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:34 PM
work with that player to shift it and it will feel more organic and less forced
Alrighty then. So one of the other tools in our box as players and writers is the equipment we use IC. Whether its a wooden shield, phaser, how important is it to be hyper specific about details? For example. Do you really need to count how many quantum torpedo's your ship has and return to drdock mid mission? Or does it really matter the exact number of strikes will that wooden shield breaks?
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[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 14-Nov-20 02:40 PM
I tend to use the "the turbolift travels and the speed of plot" and "Voyager always had torpedoes and shuttles" approach.
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 02:40 PM
That's really a subjective question... I'd say in most cases, it really doesn't matter, but in other cases it's critically important
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 02:40 PM
Well to be honest, if I am in the middle of a battle, I don't think my opponent will wait for me to refill my quantum torpedoes
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 02:41 PM
Details make all writing better. However too many slow it down. So you have to pick and choose what details you want to use. What is more important to the story, the fight or the characters in the fight? Then gear the details to your priority.
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:41 PM
So for way of example then
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 02:41 PM
But you could be creative about it and have a resupply mission with some R&R attached to it
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:41 PM
Its written that the wooden shield is battered. Would you expect it to survive a fight or not?
You likely wouldn't, nor would it be likely too. In this case. Youve given detail. Without being pedantic about it.
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 02:42 PM
hmm a battered wooden shield. No. But do you only have the shield, that is the second question?
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:42 PM
Exactly
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 02:42 PM
The warrior was tired, his gear well worn but cared for. When it came time to battle, he went on auto, his body doing what he had trained for years to do, defend and attack at the same time.
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:42 PM
or to loop to the torpedos. If its your first fight of a mission you know youll have enough
but by the 7th or 8th fight? Thats where you as the GM need to decide if your going to run out or count your last few
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 02:43 PM
The battle was bloody, swords snapping off against shiny shields, wooden shields splintering around arms with well aimed blows from maces.
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 02:43 PM
Again do we heavily rely on those torpedoes or that shield?
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 02:43 PM
One focuses on the character and one focuses on the battle. Pick and chose.
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[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 14-Nov-20 02:44 PM
It could also be a question of "actions have consequences".. if you choose to fire the torpedoes, it might bite you in the butt later.
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:44 PM
With our equipment that we use, this particular tool is designed to give feeling, consequences, drama and also detail to a situation
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 02:45 PM
This is your 15-minute warning
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:45 PM
Deepspace nine would have been rubbish is we had to regularly wait for new runabouts
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 02:45 PM
I concur with that @[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 , The problem is when they don't want to pay the piper IC when that time comes..
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:45 PM
But like lance and Mikey said, there is a point where there has to be consequences to using equipment
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 02:46 PM
With torpedoes and shields, or even how many arrows an archer has in his quiver, in my opinion what's important is what works best for the plot.
Are we going to count our ammo? Or are we going to run out regardless when it's dramatically optimal?
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:46 PM
^^
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 02:47 PM
Well, I would like to throw it in, what about diplomacy? Can we avoid battle all together?
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Kuro-chan 14-Nov-20 02:47 PM
Diplomacy is not for everyone, though.
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 02:48 PM
Yes it's optional I know
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:48 PM
Do you need diplomacy if you know you can win the fight?
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 02:48 PM
That would bring up the question of 'What does the opponent want and how can they get it without killing everyone?'
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:48 PM
or is it necessary because your battered and bruised?
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Kuro-chan 14-Nov-20 02:48 PM
Will diplomacy cost less than victory?
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 02:48 PM
^
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:49 PM
As has been said. its all situational. Your equipment is there to move the RP.Good writers and GM's will know whent o have something break, or when to run a shortage or surplus as the story demands
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Kuro-chan 14-Nov-20 02:49 PM
A question very absent in today's world, but I'll leave that there.
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 02:49 PM
Well if you know you can win and they know you can win, you have a starting point. "We come in peace helps sometimes"
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:49 PM
Righteo.
Ive changed my last one based on something said in #room-two
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 02:50 PM
has been furiously going between both rooms because both subjects are interesting
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:50 PM
So a statement. "You should never kill off a PC." Agree disagree? Why?
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 02:50 PM
Depends on the writer I think
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:50 PM
Our characters are our most valuable tools
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 02:51 PM
Killing a character can have a significant dramatic impact.
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 02:51 PM
Personally if it helps the plot, but if I have plans for my character, death may not be in it
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[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 14-Nov-20 02:51 PM
I think it's a good dramatic tool, with the owner's cooperation, of course.
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 02:51 PM
If you have the writers buy in, it can be great.
don't kill without consent.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 02:51 PM
Nothing hurts harder than something that hits the player personally.
"Don't kill without consent." Those are words to live by if I've ever heard any.
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 02:52 PM
Well if the player concents, I think the effect will be great on other characters as well. I plan to discuss it in my panel as well
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 02:52 PM
Disagree. If a PC does something stupid, and if the writer doesn't retract it when approached, how did they evade death? I've had characters destroy a romantic relationship PURELY based off the other player proposing marriage after I told them OOC the results if they went ahead with it. I gave them multiple chances to go back on it and they didn't an actions have consequences..
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 02:53 PM
Killing off should be planned ahead and of course with concent.
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 02:53 PM
Yes, the writer HAS to consent to it, but if they won't and they magically survive the obvious death-situation without a good way of doing it, I'd likely never write with their character again because I'd know THAT'S their way out (edited)
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 02:53 PM
I've heard legendary tales about a particular CO who ate his crew.
The character is Caitian
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 02:54 PM
Well if the writer has a replacement, then it would work
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 02:54 PM
Apparently the crew asked for it.
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 02:54 PM
yeah, the crew asked for it
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:54 PM
lol
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 02:54 PM
but it's still talked about now
many years later
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 02:54 PM
And as at least one my GMs know (they're here), if there's a reason or need to sacrifice a character, they just have to come to me! lol
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 02:55 PM
This is your 5-minute warning. Consider moving the conversation to the appropriate overflow room.
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 02:55 PM
I'm still wondering if this one character is going to survive to be transferred or if we need them to buy the farm to save people 😉
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[PF] Thompson 14-Nov-20 02:55 PM
So yea. Like most of our tools in our toolbox, PC death is a tactical choice done with planning and forethought. If a player is using superhero mode to escape a death situation because they RPed bad. Thats another topic. But I think theres a place for PC death. And it can be a development point that can last a sim for quite literally years OOC/IC.
Im going to draw this one to a close here so we can do a health stop and go stretch our legs. Thank you all for participating in the discussion.
==========
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 02:56 PM
Woohoooo
applauds
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 02:56 PM
Thanks @[PF] Thompson - your panels have been awesome
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 02:57 PM
So @[PF] Amethyst , think Bianca'll survive to be transferred? lol
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[PF] Virtam 14-Nov-20 02:59 PM
I’m looking forward to this next one...
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Storming Norman 14-Nov-20 02:59 PM
Me to
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:00 PM
I am not. this panelist is horrible
🤪
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 03:00 PM
======CHARACTER CREATION & DEVELOPMENT======
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[PF] CorCordale 14-Nov-20 03:00 PM
Eh, what did you expect for a free event? Jon Bon Jovi was booked solid.
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:00 PM
Darn
Ok everyone welcome to Characters 101
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Storming Norman 14-Nov-20 03:01 PM
I’m enjoying it
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 03:02 PM
Such excitement! much doge
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:03 PM
I have a few requests for this panel if you bare with me. Since we have not much time and I sometimes miss something, please raise your hand and I will tell you to ask you the question and please not before.
Darn I can't typ now. Help!
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Storming Norman 14-Nov-20 03:03 PM
Oh
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:03 PM
Ok first I am starting with a little introduction
Hello I am Giang, it’s Vietnamese and it means River. This is why I am also known on Discord as River. It’s also probably a name you can more easily pronounce. I am almost 36 years old, I am from the Netherlands, and I am a mom of an 8 year old. I am one of the members of the Joint Fleet Command over at Mystic Fleet or Mystic Fans Universe (MFU). I have been writing in the star trek community since 2006, with a little break in 2011/2012, and only started back up back in 2016. Before I wrote in the star trek community I have already been writing a lot. Mostly fanfiction in the Japanese Anime/Manga community. I have also been working on my own work, which I hope someday gets published.
Here I am known as Meran Marci. Which is the Admiralty character over in Mystic Fleet in one of the commanders of Mystic fleet. Meran Marci or Marci Meran is a Bajoran who married a Betazoid and basically took her name after marriage. Marci was known as Laban Marci before marriage. In Starfleet he is a marine, his rank is Lieutenant General. Marci is currently not in command of a playing vessel, but does make cameos on active sims in the fleet.
But I am know by many names throughout the community.
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James Stewart (MFU) 14-Nov-20 03:05 PM
hey all
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:05 PM
So I hope this qualifies me of talking with you today?
Hello Timelord, welcome (edited)
I have lost people already, I really should've tried booking Bon Jovi
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 03:06 PM
LOL
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 03:06 PM
I got Van Halen.
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:06 PM
Ok well this is Character creation and development.
The first part is the creation and then development. So I will start with the creation.
Are there any questions now
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 03:08 PM
raises hand
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:09 PM
Yes Mikey
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 03:09 PM
::RH::
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 03:09 PM
When it comes to creating a character, how important would you say it is to know as much about them right off the bat, ie making a super detailed biography, versus adding to the bio as you're writing for the character in game?
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:10 PM
well, I wouldn't go for super detailed, but a little background would be nice.
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 03:10 PM
I know I'm not raising my hand, cause I think it would benefit everyone to know this. When someone asks a question, is anyone allowed to chime in to answer it or just you?
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:11 PM
Anyone can answer the question if they want
@[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver You have a question or comment?
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 03:11 PM
I would say, it depends on the sim you're applying for/ or the story you're writing them for
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 03:11 PM
Tay, so answer, go ahead, different question, raise your hand.
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 03:11 PM
I think you need enough information in the bio for people to be able to understand the basics of who your character is.
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 03:12 PM
Then I would say the more you know your character, the more you can grow that character. IF all you have is a name and description and raw generic details, then how can your character grow? You have to have a solid knowledge of just who your character is and what direction you want your character to go.
I"m just curious about how you develop characters vs how I do it. I've written 6 novels, not yet published and created a hundred characters for sims.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 03:12 PM
Yes, I've had bios with only a few lines in them. Even though I agree not everything should be written down, to have enough so others can understand the character is a must, I think
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:13 PM
It is also in my understanding that it would help a CO significantly in looking over the bio as in your application. If a CO only gets 2 lines, it's hard for them to determent whether the character is up for it or not
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 03:14 PM
I know I overthink my characters in my own head, but if I put alllllll the information into the bio, could be sortof a novel in it's own right.. It's possibly finding the balance between enough information for others to be able to intuitively interact with the character versus overdoing it so that character development is strangled
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 03:14 PM
if I only get 2 lines, its instant fail.
but I run a very complex sim, and have a lot to consider
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:14 PM
Yea I don't accept a 2 line bio either
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 03:15 PM
when I've run pick up games at the local Roleplaying club, two lines is fine
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 03:16 PM
Also how much you put into the bio shows the GM's of the sim just how dedicated you are to simming. Lazy simmers won't write as much, and only give bare basics on bios. Simmers who are dedicated will give more detail and will be good additions to the sim.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 03:16 PM
The hardest part, try to convince the owner of that two line application that you can't accept it. Because they think it's perfect. 🤦‍♀️
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 03:16 PM
^^ preach
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 03:16 PM
Or those that are umm superpowered to an obvious degree without any weaknesses?
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:17 PM
Well, as a CO, you decide who comes on your sim. I run a Heavy Cruiser sim. If someone applies for the CMO and just put they've been in the academy, I wouldn't even consider them as a nurse to be honest.
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 03:17 PM
Oh yes, definitely. I've had people send in a application without even looking at the site. They knew we're a station sim, but that's about it. I even had someone ask me what website, when I asked if he looked at it....
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 03:17 PM
Hmmm....
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 03:17 PM
A good character will ALWAYS have flaws. If not, the character is boring and only good for curing insomnia.
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 03:18 PM
and a good character has interesting motivations.
"Become a captain one day" is just the worst
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:18 PM
I really think it's a must to give detail to the character personality as well as their strenghts and weaknesses. (edited)
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 03:18 PM
And also weird. Are you planning on taking over my sim someday?
I always give them one more weakness then strenghts. Just to make the character appear more real.
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 03:20 PM
When I start a character, I ask some strange questions, like what is their birthday, thus their sign. What is their favorite food/drink. What do they hate above all. What is their favorite color. This all points to a character that is more real than just a cardboard cut out.
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James Stewart (MFU) 14-Nov-20 03:20 PM
I always believed that it is the person's life choices that build up to the choice to serve
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:22 PM
Also the motivation of a character can change over the course of their career and life. For example a veteran could state: Retire to a farm on Bajor and get out of this regious fleet. Real life goals 😄
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 03:23 PM
A Marine special operations NCO gets assigned to go to medical school to take part in a project to see if insertion teams survive better with a fully qualified doctor along? That'd be a bit of a change in character for development purposes!
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 03:25 PM
It is situational. Just like, I'm going to use this as an example. I just recently had one of my characters who was CEO, move to XO. So that is a change.
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:25 PM
That sounds interesting for a character development.
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 03:25 PM
Whaaa? No more being CEO? Yeah well you made the decision. So suck it up.
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James Stewart (MFU) 14-Nov-20 03:26 PM
the one thing i find is after them joining is the experiances they have and who they meet
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:27 PM
Ok it seems we moved to character development.
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 03:27 PM
That's why putting a bio together is so hard for me @James Stewart (MFU) , because it's the experiences they have after I start writing for them that really make the character for me..
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Talla 14-Nov-20 03:28 PM
I think a lot of character development hingens on WHO you write with.
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the friends they make, the colleagues they have....
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 03:28 PM
a good motivation can also help justify a particularly bad-ass characacter. E.g. if a combat machine ambition is to find a cure for his sick child. well combat doesn't typically help with that, so there's a real chance that he'll fail at what matter most
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Talla 14-Nov-20 03:28 PM
does the char write itself or do you need to steer a lot
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 03:28 PM
You can't predict the future. Once you know your character, and you can hear their voice guiding you in each situation, how they grow can't be predicted until the future becomes today and moves on to yesterday.
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:28 PM
Well, this is true, James and Mikey, but you also have to understand, your previous experiences made who you are the moment you join a station/ship/etc... and what happenes after forms you for the rest. Sometimes, a person can grow.
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 03:29 PM
Character driven writing can be a pain in the butt where you are working in monster of the week ensemble
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:29 PM
Junior officers tend to feel very full of themselves, but once they get in senior positions they change, specially younger officers just out of the academy.
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Talla 14-Nov-20 03:29 PM
and sometimes an npc meant for one time use, grows to be much more
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 03:31 PM
Trek doesn't use character requests... sometimes if you requested specific characters for a specific plot to drive something forward it could potentially drive other things forward
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 03:32 PM
@Skoll - that's something I do on the regular
LOL
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Talla 14-Nov-20 03:33 PM
oh I've done that.... I don't do random NPC but I've done npcs that were meant for short use and due to play with others they grew and became more regular
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 03:33 PM
If you want to see how knowing your character well can effect the story, look at the TNG episode where Picard gets the new heart and Q let's him see what would have happened if the older, wiser version of Picard was in charge of the younger, more passionate, impulsive Picard. Completely different endings to the same story. So you have to know your character and decide how you want them to grow and then make choices and actions based on getting the end you envision.
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 03:33 PM
I work in mainstream normal town rpgs on a regular basis so often find myself tailoring a character to the requests of others.
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 03:34 PM
Actually. I would default to the TNG episode 'Lower Decks.'
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 03:34 PM
Helps that I have a couple of dozen characters on tap in my head at any given time
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 03:34 PM
That a a damn good example.
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Talla 14-Nov-20 03:35 PM
I find I can want one thing for my char but if char says no it just won't happen. try as I might I won't get written down what I want for my char
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 03:35 PM
Character creation is an art
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 03:35 PM
So, @[MFU] Meran Marci When it comes down to it, how would YOU personally think a character can change during their experiences within a sim? Would you say it's possible to change enough that he character could actually get boring to write?
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 03:35 PM
it really is
but it's something that requires balance and thought
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:36 PM
No, there is a lot of factors in a sim that can change a character, it's the missions/stories, subplots.
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 03:36 PM
The biggest killer of characters I've found tends to be environmental
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:36 PM
A character is just a part of the grand things of skeems.
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 03:37 PM
True connection with a character is when you are writing something and know it just isn't in the characters personality
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 03:38 PM
Yes, it is possible to get bored of writing for the same character for years at a time without having them grow and over come problems. And then it gets to be routine and it gets harder and harder to find new ways to challenge them until you dread having to write for them. But that only comes after years of writing the same character. Even published writers get tired of the same characters and move on.
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 03:38 PM
@Skoll - that's a great point!
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Talla 14-Nov-20 03:38 PM
and sometimes their stories just end
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[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 14-Nov-20 03:38 PM
So when do we get to the creation and development portion of the panel?
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 03:38 PM
Connection is important.. I know lots of times, when I create characters, they have tidbits of me personally in them
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 03:39 PM
I'd say every character I create reflects a part of me in them, 100% of the time (even villains)
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:39 PM
Well on that note, I would put this in. what about realtionships to other characters. And I am not just talking about Romantic relationships. I am talking about all personal relations a character can have. Both positive and negative. Cause try as you might, there are always characters that don't like your character or vice versa.
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 03:39 PM
I wrote the same character for five years on the same site, trust me when you are playing the same dumb kid for five years you find ways to entertain yourself
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:39 PM
Anyone have any examples how that can develop your characters?
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 03:40 PM
It can help drive relationships in other areas
it can make your character question themselves
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Talla 14-Nov-20 03:40 PM
it is only natural that there's chars that you don't like or get along with and vice versa
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FrostedSiren 14-Nov-20 03:40 PM
. . . I think I got the wrong panel.
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 03:40 PM
You can make a friend an enemy and vice versa.
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Talla 14-Nov-20 03:40 PM
same with connections
sometimes characters connect without you making much effort to do so
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:40 PM
This is true
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Talla 14-Nov-20 03:41 PM
I had a char who was originally gay and then he met someone who turned out to be his best friend. their friendship evolved into a non-physical love and eventually they got married
the friend was female
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 03:41 PM
I played a widowed and deeply mourning bi character with a kid dealing with feelings and eventually love for a male character played by a stranger. It was a slow burn thing rather than instant love, coupled with someone having to deal with knowing that you weren't the forever guy living with someone with disability issues
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Talla 14-Nov-20 03:41 PM
us the players did not plan for this and we tried with all our might steer away as we had different plans. chars planned ifferent
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also... I have a new char on a simm in 16th, and he just connected with someone. totally unplanned but it just happened. those are the best experiences to write
to me
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Draxx - CO Andromeda 14-Nov-20 03:43 PM
when you don't see something coming and its the least thing you expect, those are always the most interesting to write!
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 03:44 PM
I concur entirely!
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Talla 14-Nov-20 03:44 PM
exactly
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 03:44 PM
Tall it depends on whether you are fading to black or whether you are going full wack
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 03:44 PM
I've forced character development on characters before and totally regretted it in the end
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Talla 14-Nov-20 03:44 PM
it just doesnt work. going with the flow tends to work best
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 03:45 PM
This is your 15-minute warning
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:45 PM
I think just like in real life, you can't make things happen, just because you want it.
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Talla 14-Nov-20 03:45 PM
nods
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 03:45 PM
Absolutely as a writer you know when something feels right
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Talla 14-Nov-20 03:46 PM
yeap
and don't get talked into writing "beyond face to black" if it doesn't feel right
if it feels right do it... off sim, don't post it and keep it private, but if it doesnt...don't do it
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 03:47 PM
Ultimately there's no need to write beyond fade to black in RP.
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Talla 14-Nov-20 03:47 PM
sometimes a flow of things will go there
I've done it in the past but after a bad experience (the dude actually posted and thus shared it) I don't do it anymore
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 03:47 PM
In norm sims we now have what we call limit lines... so people know what's a hard limit such as extreme violence or sexual scenea
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Talla 14-Nov-20 03:47 PM
and he kinda forced it tbh.... I left that sim not long after
yea but if a simm has the proper ratings it's not impossible to post it... or write it off screen so it never makes it to the public
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:48 PM
I think you also know when your character's end is near. One of my characters had a best friend, but the writer decided to have her die. And she did, and it was so emotional, and the memorial and her best friend going to a hologram message of her best friend. So emotional. My best friend left my character everything she had (edited)
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 03:49 PM
I killed one of mine recently.
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[PF] Tobias Bishop - CO DS3 14-Nov-20 03:50 PM
So, what you're saying is, this is never going to actually become a "How to create and develop a character" panel? We're just going to swap "I have X character" stories the whole hour? (edited)
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Talla 14-Nov-20 03:50 PM
I tried to kill my one time use npc way back when.... it didn't happen ... I can't seme to kill off my guys, I'm too attached. but the above mentioned gay man, he's seen his husband die because the player decided to quit and kill the char
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 03:50 PM
We have spoken about creating characters and developing the.
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Talla 14-Nov-20 03:50 PM
the question was about certain developments I think
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 03:50 PM
Sometimes its about asking someone to fill out a request.
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:51 PM
Sometimes another character's death, puts in a reaction in your own character.
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 03:52 PM
It almost always should... unless you are a sociopath
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:52 PM
Death is a part of life. Whether it is your own death, or someone elses death.
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 03:53 PM
you play in an arena where often death is not an issue in your games its a non starter
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 03:53 PM
That is exactly what I did. Its was for CD and reactions to develop relationships and hardship for other characters. How they react with that death. How they deal with it.
Its not always about character creation but also creation of how they grow, regardless of what is going on.
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:54 PM
Also when we kill of our own character, but wish to stay with the sim in a different role, the cycle restart and you have to create a new character
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 03:54 PM
That keeps making your character development.
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 03:55 PM
This is your 5-minute warning. Consider moving the conversation to the appropriate overflow room.
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:56 PM
Well, I think this is it folks, this is all the time I have in this room. I will be in #overflow-one
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 03:57 PM
@[MFU] Meran Marci - thank you for a great panel! 🙂 We're very glad you decided to join us today and lead this discussion. 🙂
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[MFU] Meran Marci 14-Nov-20 03:58 PM
It was nothing, besides the discussion lead itself lol
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 03:58 PM
It was great. You can learn a lot by reading other people's experiences in character creation and development.
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 04:00 PM
======STORYTELLING vs ROLEPLAYING======
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:00 PM
Hello, everyone. I hope you’ve all been enjoying Fall Fest X so far. My name is Alex. Just to give a little background on me, I’ve been simming for the past twelve years or so in various locations and forms. I’ve simmed in a few different formats, mostly SMS and Nova, but I’ve had a little experience with some forum based sims earlier in my simming career. I settled into Pegasus Fleet nearly eleven years ago, and it has been my pleasure to serve as the fleet commanding officer for the past six years. For the past eight years I’ve been the commanding officer of Starbase 332 in Pegasus Fleet.
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. One of the highlights of my week as a child was getting to stay up late on Fridays to watch The Next Generation with my dad. Even my career choice in engineering was in part inspired by Star Trek and the incredible stories that I got to see unfold on my old 20” 4:3 TV. During the first three years of college I played Dungeons and Dragons with my friends and roommates. Even earlier than that some of my fondest memories of me and my late grandmother were, of all things, staying up late and playing Final Fantasy games with her. Well, she played, and I mostly hid every time she got caught in a random encounter. It was through her that I first fell in love with interesting characters and epic storytelling. She was also an amateur writer, and loved coming up with stories for each of her grandchildren.
. I tell you all of this not because I enjoy rambling. Well, not just because I enjoy rambling. I wanted to start out giving some of my background and experience when it comes writing. I was, and continue to be, inspired by my grandmother. And in simming, I’ve been greatly inspired by the many incredible stories that we’ve seen in the various Star Trek shows. Despite all of the years of writing, watching shows, and playing games, I was very recently, as in earlier this year, hit with a comment that shook my entire approach to simming. It was a very fundamental question, and despite all of my experience, it was a question that I had admittedly never considered.
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. When we sim, do we write as storytellers, or as roleplayers?
. It’s probably silly to many of you, but this question actually made me look at things in an entirely new light. And it explained a lot about the very different ways that I’ve seen people approach their writing. One thing that I found baffling as a writer and as a GM is how often I would see posts between two characters in a chance meeting. Just meeting in a corridor or sharing a drink in the crew lounge. I found this baffling because I couldn’t understand why these posts existed since they did little to nothing to advance the current mission. They just felt like filler posts. But after having that original conversation, I understood so much better why posts like this exist.
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:02 PM
I do both, as that's how I see simming.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:02 PM
. So what do I mean when I say storytelling versus roleplaying? For some of you, the distinction may be obvious. For some of us, it might not have been.
. Let’s start with storytelling. For me, this has always been my preferred focus for simming, and even when I was playing tabletop games with my friends in college. When I say storytelling, I’m referring to writing in the sense that the plot is the primary objective. The characters, while extremely important, are a means to an end. They exist as a way to move the plot along through their words and actions, and their personalities influence how those words and actions influence the plot. Character driven stories certainly still exist, and characters can absolutely grow and develop through storytelling. In those cases, the story is still the primary objective. Dialogue and character interaction drives the development of the plot, whether that plot is something personal or something related to the ship’s mission. But the characters are the tools we use to write those plots. . Maybe another way to present storytelling is to compare it to what we see on screen. Star Trek, as well as any other genre, presents a story to us each week in the form of episodes. When I write, I think of missions as episodes of a show, complete with a multi-act plot. Stories, or story arcs, should have a beginning, middle, and end. And if you’re feeling spicy, you can throw in cold opens too. When writing in this style, I like to plan out the basic outline of the plot so that we at least have a good idea where we’re going, even if we are still working out the details as we go. The destination may be more important than the journey.
. Roleplaying is for the people who aren’t so interested in the story, or at least do not see the story as the main focus. For roleplaying the focus is on the development of the characters, taking on the personality of that character and fully embodying that character within the universe of the game. The plot is no longer the goal of the writing, but rather something to set the stage for roleplayers to have something for their characters to do. Plot advancement is secondary to developing the characters. For that matter, developing the characters may be secondary to simply imagining life as our characters. . You’re not going to find many roleplaying examples in film or television, but it’s going to be much more common in video and tabletop games. Maybe especially in tabletop, unless you played D&D like I did. In most tabletop games, the GM is going to be creating situations and scenarios for the players, through their characters, to play out. For roleplayers, the journey is far more important than the destination.
. I know this has been a lot of reading so far, so let’s hear from all of you. I do want to turn this into a discussion, and not just me pasting a bunch of words. How do you prefer to approach simming? Do you prefer storytelling, or roleplaying?
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[16th Fleet] Kate 14-Nov-20 04:05 PM
roleplaying!
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 04:05 PM
I prefer a mixture.
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 04:05 PM
a mix of both
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 04:05 PM
Well. this is interesting. I agree with everything you said, except I have the two definitions the other way round 🙂
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:05 PM
As I said, I do both. It's how I see simming, I can't see one without the other.
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:05 PM
I play D&D so when you phraised it like that I got the picture real fast thankyou.
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 04:06 PM
i guess I emphaises the game aspect more that the RP part.
But i think you need a mix. they're complementary, not contradictory
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:06 PM
Exactly @Beautiful Night
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:07 PM
Personally, I am a roleplayer. The characters drive the story.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:07 PM
I don't disagree with you there.
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:07 PM
I tend to be a roleplayer myself though I do try to read the story untill my head hurt's.
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:07 PM
I do have a story in mind, but I allow it to progress only as the characters progress.
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 04:07 PM
Actually, yall are aware, that Story and Roleplaying are exactly the same thing.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:08 PM
But I do want to touch on something @Beautiful Night said. I think it depends a lot on how we're approaching our sim. Is it a game, or is it collaborative writing?
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 04:08 PM
You have to roleplay(in this format) to do stories and push stories ahead.
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 04:08 PM
For a really good sim, you have to have a compelling story to draw in the players. And then you have to strong characters, played by the players, to move the story forward. So you have to balance the two. Just one or the other alone is boring for players, but not for readers. And as we are all players, we have to have a mix.
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June 14-Nov-20 04:08 PM
I prefer to role play and let that happen than having already done all the character development which imo is story telling.
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 04:08 PM
I'd go roleplaying for the most part, because we're (yes) telling the story from the POV of our character, but it's much more than TELLING the story, it's BEING the story
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:08 PM
Storytelling and Roleplaying ARE NOT THE SAME.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:08 PM
@[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia That's why I wanted to make the distinction, because I feel like they are not the same. They go hand in hand, certainly. But they are not the same.
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 04:09 PM
@[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia I'd agree, but having done LARR for 20+ years, there's always people who want to chase plot, and people who like to dress up and chat. simming is the same
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:09 PM
In my opinion, storytelling is when a writer TELLS the story to the reader. It can be compelling and even immersive, but it's a told story.
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Roleplaying is about the ROLES of the characters involved, and their personality drives the story.
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:09 PM
As a storyteller, you relate the story to others. As a roleplayer, you only relate to your part in that story.
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:10 PM
Roleplaying is more feeling based and story telling is more personal understanding based it's not the same but it CAN be close in many aspects.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:10 PM
I agree with all three of you.
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June 14-Nov-20 04:11 PM
If you want story telling, blog it. If you want role playing, act with others.
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:11 PM
I like what @[PF] AlexM said earlier, that its whether your sim is played as a game or as collabaritve writing.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:11 PM
Who is benefitting from the post? Is it the audience reading the post, or is it the players writing the post?
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:11 PM
Roleplaying is what your character FEELS or what he THINKS but storytelling is what YOU the player understands in your own unique and beautiful way.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:12 PM
One example that comes to mind is when you have posts where two random officers pass each other in the corridor and have a brief conversation. Or a post where several members of the crew have gotten together in a lounge to relax and just chat. In both cases, I’ve struggled wrapping my head around the “point” of the post. What is the plot? How does this factor into the greater story. Have any of my characters grown from this interaction? Many times there is no “point” to these posts, other than just spending some time with our characters and getting to understand them better.
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 04:13 PM
Quentin Tarantino is a god of those sorts of scenes
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:13 PM
I used to like how in TNG each episode had it's Primary Plot involving the ship and its mission, and a Secondary Plot that was character driven.
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 04:13 PM
Sometimes those scenes can provide little things though... like a lowly junior officer meeting the commanding officer on a large starbase (edited)
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:14 PM
Oh, I'm not saying that they're useless by any stretch of the imagination.
I'm just pointing out my mindset, and why I feel like I've always struggled with this question.
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:14 PM
To play your part(role play) you must read and understand the story. You then relate the story(Storyteller) to others to read about. Isn't that what simming is all about?
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:15 PM
I think that depends on the player, to be honest.
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:15 PM
(Sorry Kitten want's love I'm still here though)
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:15 PM
For me, yes. I'm writing to relate a story.
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:15 PM
After 10 years, I must be doing it wrong.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:16 PM
For some I think they couldn't care less about the story. For them, it's about the character. It's about embodying that character. Feeling what that character feels. The story is just there in the background to give them something to do.
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:17 PM
But surely one must interact with the other, without a story a character is nothing.
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:18 PM
I admit I am one of those. I focus on what my character feel's and what they think and the interactions I have with other's in the crew. But the story keep's me in line to move twords the end resault.
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:19 PM
I care about my character, but I also know without the story going on around her. She has no point, or reason to be.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:19 PM
I think this is precisely where I feel like this distinction is drawn. @Lia, I think I've always been on your side of the argument. But @Denday14 likes to approach it from another direction. Neither is right or wrong. They're just different. And while subtle, I think there are good reasons why we should consider the distinction.
. Let me ask this? Can anyone think of any situations where you might have had a “conflict” between a storyteller and a roleplayer?
A situation where these two approaches might have been at odds?
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 04:20 PM
I tend to find that those who just want to do the roleplaying don't actually take part in the mission posts, and slow the whole sim down
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:21 PM
Not a specific event, but often "the story" leaves certain characters "out of the loop" with nothing to contribute. What does that outside character do within the story?
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:21 PM
There must be several situations where conflict arises, I can't think of any off hand.
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:21 PM
For instance, you have a Medical-driven mission ... what does the Ops Manager do during those sims?
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 04:21 PM
@Captain Zak I know the problem, I tend to encourage NPCs for just that reason
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:21 PM
Well normally n those regard's I try to occupy myself with random thing's to do around the ship that might spark the story back into me when I am lost.
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 04:22 PM
Yes. The story leads the characters down a certain path, but the roleplayer can't figure out how go down that path because it is so contrary to what the player feels the character would do.
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:22 PM
In situations like that, isn't that why sub plots are created?
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:22 PM
I tend to read back on the story to see where I am at aswell.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:22 PM
Same, @Beautiful Night. On my starbase sim I encourage secondary characters for that reason.
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 04:23 PM
For example, The engineer is required by order from the bridge to jettison the warp core for whatever purpose. But the engineer knows, in their heart, they can do the same thing without sacrificing the warp core. However the story demands the loss of the warp core for something the player can't see. So the conflict arises.
Which takes precedence....the player or the story?
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Talla 14-Nov-20 04:24 PM
the story
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:24 PM
The player.
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:24 PM
I often find in that scenario, a DM to the Engineer to explain the reasoning (even without details) is enough to "correct" the actions of the character to fit the story.
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:24 PM
But wouldn't a sub plot where the engineer learns why the warp core has to jettisoned assist?
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 04:25 PM
So is that storytelling or role playing?
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:25 PM
I agree with Talla that the story must come first. It has the long goal in mind.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:25 PM
[16th] Talla H'RharToday at 4:24 PM the story Denday14Today at 4:24 PM The player.
And therein lies the motivation for this panel.
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:25 PM
Good one, @[PF] AlexM ! You caught the conflict exactly!
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:26 PM
I say if the story can't tell me why I need to get rid of the warp core and knowing I can fix it why not fix it if their is no real reason to be rid of it.
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 04:26 PM
people need agency. if what they do doesn't make a difference to you, why are they giving you their time.? I live in dread of railroading my players
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:26 PM
Neither is "wrong", they just have different viewpoints.
But from the perspective of the GM of the sim, the story must come first since it affects the sim itself.
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 04:27 PM
Does it? what if people decides they're just grandstanding the GM and leave?
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:27 PM
@[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver I think it's a little of both. I think they both need to be considered. I feel like that's where the CO needs to be cognizant of what the player might want, and the story that is being told, and work that out with the player.
Or be prepared to be flexible with the character counters.
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:27 PM
A good GM works with her people, and takes note of other options.
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:28 PM
I agree
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:28 PM
I've found that sometimes letting the character do their thing will add a new wrinkle to the story that makes it even better!
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 04:28 PM
A good GM knows how to be flexible and tailor the story to the players.
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:28 PM
but good players will also work with the GM
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:28 PM
Good point taylor.
I do love throwing a wrench in your plans to see you utterly stunned as to what to do next it's funny.
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:29 PM
😛
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:29 PM
Therefore, we agree that good interaction between GM and crew is required.
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 04:29 PM
absolutely
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:29 PM
as a player it is my role to help the GM tell the story or thats how I always saw it. You can as a player do your own things and such sub plots but in the end it should all tie in to the main thread
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:30 PM
You shouldn't have to sacrifice the story for the characters, but you should be willing to consider altering the story to fit the characters.
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:30 PM
Of course.
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:30 PM
or thats how I have always rolled
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[PF]Wulfgar/C'Tirr 14-Nov-20 04:30 PM
And make it better
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:30 PM
For example the ship is damaged Bevin is our engioneer I'm operations so what do I do I fix the damn wireing on my bridge and burn the poop outta myself.
But I fixed it.
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 04:31 PM
You don't have a sim if you don't have players. All you have is yourself telling a story. And a sim isn't a sim if it doesn't have boundaries and guidelines to shape the game/story. If it doesn't then all you have is a bunch of people BSing at the same time.
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:32 PM
well community is a big deal too. I have found that the best sims i have been on is the ones where the admin and the players work and communicate regularly
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and even play a little too
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:33 PM
Interaction between the storyteller and the role player to gain the result of a damn good story and fun had by all.
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:33 PM
My number one rule is that this is a game we play to have fun. If it stops being fun, why do you continue the game?
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Sprite (Dragon Age: Legacy) 14-Nov-20 04:33 PM
^^^^ this
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:33 PM
Playing is pretty much all we do on the penumbra obviously the story come's 1st but when their is a lull we tease eachother.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:34 PM
Looking at simming with the mindset that there are at least two fundamentally different approaches to the way players write, what can we do with that information as GMs? Or if you're a player, what would you want your GM to do with this information?
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:34 PM
On our sim, Discord is where we let loose. On the sim is where we write and enjoy ourselves.
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:35 PM
Figure out a way to adapt to the situation at hand.
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:35 PM
For the GM: know your simmers! That's got to be foremost. If you know your crew and their personalities, you can tailor your sim accordingly.
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 04:35 PM
Absolutely!
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:35 PM
Agreed
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:36 PM
I as a player just want to know that I am making a contribution. That I am enriching the story with what I add. I don't want to be space filler.
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 04:36 PM
Every player can contribute something important.
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:36 PM
I don't think anyone wants to be a spacefiller.
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 04:36 PM
As a GM, you do need to know your players well, and come up with plots that will engage your simmers. As a simmer, you need to take inspiration from the story and use your character to move it forward and at time add some twists that may or maynot have been planned for, but always following the structure of that particular sim.
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:36 PM
It's easy to get to know your crew when half of it is conviently family. you have the select few odd ones but I guess that's why the Penumbra runs so smoothly.
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:37 PM
Each of us that plays a character in a story must understand that at times, our character won't be "the star" for a chapter or two ... those times happen. During those times, what does your character do?
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:37 PM
You dont have to be a star to shine or matter
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 04:37 PM
I have found that some sims lean more toward the silly and fun loving and some sims lean toward the serious and closer to life than not.
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 04:37 PM
I've seen a correlation between healthy sims and discord participation. But there is a lot of confirmation bias and not a lot observations in that conclusion
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:38 PM
Good point @Mellacastray we can all contribute and "shine", even if we're not "the star" at that moment.
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:38 PM
Exactly
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:38 PM
Well our sim covers several time zones on several continents, we all have fun and we know if there's a problem our Command Staff are there to aid us.
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 04:39 PM
I've seen a correlation between healthy sims and discord participation. But there is a lot of confirmation bias and not a lot observations in that conclusion
@Beautiful Night I actually do firmly believe that there is a strong correlation between the two
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 04:40 PM
I think that the player needs to find which style they are most comfortable with and then find sims that are geared toward their style.
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[SARP] Wes 14-Nov-20 04:41 PM
I've found that when there's a Discord one issue is it tends to suck the life out of the community's forum - all the OOC discussion happens in chat and not the forum.
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:41 PM
One size doesn't always fit all, when your simming.
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:41 PM
That might be one of the main differences in our orgs. The USF does live chat simming for one hour a week, most of us in Discord now. We promote logs, but focus on that one hour a week. So, we have to have all our "fun" during the sim while still advancing the story.
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 04:41 PM
and not all simms have forums
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:41 PM
I dont know about the rest of you but when I am in the middle of a good story in the thick of things and the world is going to shit and everything is at its most hopeless. I consider the small acts of the many players and how they as their characters present themselves. Like comforting a friend, or trying that one last thing even if it isnt going to work. those moments are just as golden as the one where the star finds the solution that saves the day.
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:41 PM
Maybe I have been a bit spoiled in some degrees but the ship I am on often leads into having fun and messing around yes we follow the story the best tat we can but there is never a dull moment.
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 04:41 PM
And for the record, I'm part of a group where ALL The sims are live sims, writing is encouraged but not required. So if you are all gearing this to writing only sims, you need to expand your horizons and thought processes.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:42 PM
Let me ask this. Is it better to focus a sim on one over the other, or maintain a balance? And how might people like me adapt better to accommodate those who prefer the other approach?
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:42 PM
Balance can lead to great thing's like a painting you have to balance out the color's to where they compliment eachother into a beautiful piece of artwork a masterpiece. (edited)
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 04:42 PM
Id say its about not just balancing them out, but makeing sure one feeds the other
like alternating current
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 04:43 PM
A balance is always preferable. But if you lean one way more strongly than another, put that in the sim description so players can know not only your ship build, patrol zone, but if you are more story driven or character driven in your plots.
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Lia 14-Nov-20 04:43 PM
I love to write, and writing on a sim helps me in so many ways. I don't know what I'd do if it stopped.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:44 PM
A comment that was brought up earlier today was about the role that NPCs play in our sims. How might that role change depending on if we are writing as storytellers or as roleplayers?
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:44 PM
For me NPCs are hard because I always want to play them like anther character
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:44 PM
Depends on the situation the provoked the change.
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 04:45 PM
This is your 15-minute warning
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:45 PM
@Mellacastray Is there a reason why you can't?
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 04:45 PM
@Lia I write novels for fun and relaxation, the same as simming and writing for my characters. There will always be outlets for writing, if you want them.
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:45 PM
Yeah, on the Penumbra we have several "characters" that began as NPCs that have been "adopted" as Alternate Characters now that someone actively plays!
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:45 PM
Thing's just kinda happen.
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:46 PM
(Granted, most are played by my XO ... he's doing like 5 characters now.)
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:46 PM
Sometime's it's ment to be other's maybe it was needed.
(Hey I'm doing 2 and might bring on a 3rd)
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:48 PM
Well they are suppose to be supporting characters to my understanding. SO used only as needed to help further the story. I tend to be a bit too connected to my Npc's they all end up having names historys and families and then their own stories and well I once ended up playing a whole Marine detachment because the simm lulled and so having been told i could create as many NPCs as I wanted as the Marine CO I had over 30 of them that in the end were there own characters entirely
so it was likely just a me thing
boredem and a terrable need to write and a lack of interaction from other crewmates.
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:48 PM
That sounds like my XO!
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:48 PM
I made my own friends
and we tried to take the ship come to think of it
got everyone posting again though
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:49 PM
Imaginary friends are real friends too! 🙂
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:49 PM
so
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 04:49 PM
@Mellacastray - there are lots of us that use NPC's as characters
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:49 PM
I know I mentioned earlier that I like to encourage secondary characters. A lot of it does depend on the size of the sim. And by size, I don't necessarily mean the number of players, but the size of the ship/station/whatever. But I do think that three dimensional NPCs can add a lot of life and depth to a sim.
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Mikey- Rozia 14-Nov-20 04:50 PM
waves his hand in the air On Astraea, I've somehow limited myself to 2 or 3 NPCs for the moment, but I tend to create deliberately throw-away ones when the plot requires
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:50 PM
Hi Mikey!!!!
waves back
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 04:50 PM
I have NPC's on most sims I'm on that I play just as much as I play my main characters
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:50 PM
I made 2 throw-away NPCs, Ensign Filler and Lieutenant Standin .... they have their own characters now!
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:50 PM
I am trying to be a good girl on the Penn One character keeps them pretty busy from me
if I had NPCs.....
the post count would get out of hand
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[PF] Virtam 14-Nov-20 04:51 PM
Same, @[PF] Amethyst. If I have a recurring NPC, I tend to put as much effort into creating them and developing them as I do my main character.
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:51 PM
I love ens filler he's so cute!
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:51 PM
Are NPCs a better tool for the storyteller, or the roleplayer?
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:52 PM
Like a little puppy.
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 04:52 PM
I think NPC's are great for both
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:52 PM
I like the way the Doctor does his Nurses and techs. 🙂 It just flows so effortlessly its fun to read
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:52 PM
Oh, I think NPCs are intended for the storyteller .... they fill gaps that aren't filled by regular PCs.
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:52 PM
in more ways then one
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:53 PM
(But when an NPC turns into a PC, well ... then it becomes a roleplaying element, I guess.)
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[PF] Virtam 14-Nov-20 04:53 PM
I dunno. They can present challenges for storytellers, too, especially as writers come and go.
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:54 PM
I was on a sim where there was a 30 day policy on NOCs they where as my old GM called them the fodder and they died first. So you learned to not get attached to the Npcs
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[PF] Virtam 14-Nov-20 04:54 PM
Of course, the same is true of playing characters, too, so...
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:54 PM
But again, like @[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver mentioned, the USF is more live chat based than story writing, so ... it leans more towards roleplaying, I guess.
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 04:55 PM
This is your 5-minute warning. Consider moving the conversation to the appropriate overflow room.
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:55 PM
Live chat simming is something that we didn't touch on, and we may not be able to go into it since we're running low on time.
But I can absolutely see that leaning more heavily on roleplaying.
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:55 PM
Yes. I love live simming
gotta think on your feet
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:56 PM
I really only did a live RP the one time. And I probably struggled because I had to think on my feet.
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Talla 14-Nov-20 04:56 PM
pre plannet plots work for live RP. it's how I learned to simm
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:56 PM
It depends on the bond you have with your character
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:56 PM
I didn't have time to really figure out where I was trying to go before I got going.
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:56 PM
Yeah that's something I literally can't do even if I wanted to I just don't think that fast plus being socially awkward.....Yikes.
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:57 PM
I am a werido I hear mine so its easy for me
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:57 PM
This probably isn't the place for it, but if you're interested in live simming, talk with one of the USFers.
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:57 PM
I just relay what they say to do
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Talla 14-Nov-20 04:57 PM
I think... most simmers are a wee socially awkward. nothing wrong with that. it's why we escape in a fantasy right
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:57 PM
Fair point.
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:57 PM
True.
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Talla 14-Nov-20 04:57 PM
live RP can be fun, but works best with short sessions and have a specific thing you want to pla out
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Cipherhornet18 14-Nov-20 04:57 PM
I came in too late, I'm intrigued...
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Talla 14-Nov-20 04:58 PM
is my experience anyway but it's been YEARS since I did that. I started with it in 1998 but haven't since about 2002 or so
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:58 PM
Well I also have a lisp that I used to get badly teased on so I really don't do live chat's.
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Talla 14-Nov-20 04:58 PM
live probably means live action writing
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:58 PM
I was invited to one a year ago and loved it. However the schedule was not kind to my already heavy work one at that time
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 04:58 PM
Hmm..Possibly.
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Captain Zak 14-Nov-20 04:58 PM
Yeah ... text-based live chat room based.
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Talla 14-Nov-20 04:59 PM
that
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Cipherhornet18 14-Nov-20 04:59 PM
My schedule makes chat RP a pain
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:59 PM
Same
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Cipherhornet18 14-Nov-20 04:59 PM
But I am intrigued all the same
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 04:59 PM
I do enjoy it though
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[PF] AlexM 14-Nov-20 04:59 PM
It’s about time for us to be wrapping up and getting ready for the next panel. I’d like to thank all of you for this discussion. I think there have been a lot of very interesting things said, so I'm really glad that we could have the conversation. Feel free to continue the conversation in #overflow-one. And if not, then enjoy what's left of FallFest!
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 04:59 PM
One hour a week, where you are in the same chat room, role playing Star Trek, with writing logs to enhance it during the week.
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 05:00 PM
Thank you @[PF] AlexM for your panel! It was great!
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Denday14 14-Nov-20 05:00 PM
Welcome everyone and thankyou for the chat!
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 05:00 PM
======RPG RATINGS AND WHAT DO THEY REALLY MEAN?======
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:00 PM
Before I start this discussion, I must warn everyone that if you are sensitive to certain language or descriptions of sexual acts, then you may not want to participate in this panel. By the necessity of the topic and discussion of rating systems, some language or descriptions may not be suitable for people in the USA under the age of 18 or whatever the equivalent is in other countries. .
👍🏻 4
(Lets people settle themselves in and out) (edited)
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 05:01 PM
grabs a front row seat and some pop corn
this is gonna be good
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:01 PM
That warning having been given, we will explore ratings and what they “really mean.” .
Can anyone guess, without googling it, what this movie was rated? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v.EHV0zs0kVGg .
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 05:02 PM
I cant see what movie it is
just says you tube
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:02 PM
(If you can't pull up the link, it is the 1980 movie, The Blues Brothers.)
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[PF] Gregory 14-Nov-20 05:03 PM
It was actually rated R, if memory serves me (under the U.S. rating system)
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:03 PM
For those of you are youngsters, this 1980 movie was The Blues Brothers and is something that EVERYONE must watch. .
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:03 PM
UK 15
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 05:03 PM
hmmm 80s pg 13
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:03 PM
No PG13 back then
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 05:03 PM
true
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:03 PM
IIRC it's a 15 in the UK
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 05:03 PM
See both Blues Brothers. More than once.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:03 PM
What’s probably most surprising to people, at least those of us who had to get parental permission to see it in the movie theaters in 1980, was that this movie was rated R. .
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 05:03 PM
I dont watch movies so there is that
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:04 PM
The movie has some sexual language, often using the word “shit” and very occasionally “fuck.” .
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:04 PM
Not surprising. There was no PG-13 back then.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:04 PM
Nowadays, this movie would likely be rated PG-13 in America. .
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:04 PM
It didn't come in until Raiders of the Lost Ark.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:04 PM
In the UK, this movie would likely be rated 12A but at the time was rated 15. .
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:04 PM
its still a 15
i have the DVD
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:04 PM
The BBFC doesn't reclassify.
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 05:04 PM
As opposed to, ratings have changed. You have Shit, and Fuck on general cable TV now. So, its up to the CO.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:04 PM
Well, I'll bow to the Brit on that @Beautiful Night
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:05 PM
(i love the blue brothers. Damn I didn't put illinois nazis on my list of villains)
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:05 PM
Unless there is a new release.
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:05 PM
Good point
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:05 PM
Next time @Beautiful Night
In Australia, the movie would likely be rated PG. .
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 05:05 PM
Language, sex, how far before you need to make it go fade to black.
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:05 PM
There are some older PG-rated movies that today would be rated at least a 12.
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:05 PM
these things are constantly shifting with the culture
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:05 PM
Are you confused yet? .
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:05 PM
I@m always confused
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:05 PM
If not, you will be! .
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:05 PM
It's not even consistent between cultures.
👍 2
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[PF] CorCordale 14-Nov-20 05:05 PM
Hooray confusion!
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:05 PM
In the USA, movie rating systems are set by the MPA (Motion Picture Association), a non-governmental entity. .
It is completely a voluntary rating system and is NOT ENFORCED BY LAW. .
However, television is controlled by the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) and IS ENFORCEABLE by law. .
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:06 PM
When I was in the Netherlands on holiday aged 12, I watched a movie called 'Go' that was rated 12 there.
It was an 18 in the UK.
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 05:06 PM
I am not one that cares. If you're offended by language, sex(to a point) then you have no business RPing or talking to us. You're not mature enough to handle it, then go play hello kitty island adventure.
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:06 PM
In the UK, films and movies are controlled by the British Board of Film Classification, and are enforceable by law.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:06 PM
However, television is controlled by the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) and IS ENFORCEABLE by law. .
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 05:07 PM
I like Hello kittys island adventure
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:07 PM
In other countries, like Australia, all ratings are governmentally controlled, theoretically providing more uniformity. .
Another problem with ratings is that different parts of the world view themes such as sexuality, violence, and cussing differently. .
For example, in the UK and Europe, full frontal nudity is occasionally seen for men and women and is generally permissible as long as the focus is not on adult content during general viewing periods. .
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:07 PM
In the UK, no classification means no release.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:07 PM
In France and Germany, some films with strong sexual content might be deemed appropriate for all ages. .
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 05:07 PM
An it is in the US now.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:08 PM
Nudity and sex on television would never fly in the United States, which is much more Puritan in nature. (Of course, there are a few notable exceptions of shows on TV that have pushed the envelope such as NYPD Blue which had an episode with nudity.) Movies, however, would likely get the R or NC-17 (formerly X) rating. .
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:08 PM
yay. we get Chris Pine's sexy ass
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:08 PM
The Germans are the people who had a nudist beach right next to the Iron Curtain.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:08 PM
However, in Arabic countries, USA standards would probably be seen as hedonistic and barbaric. In fact, in China, all “adult content,” is banned. .
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:08 PM
And the GDR had a really big 'Free Body Culture' scene despite official disapproval.
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 05:08 PM
Asia, I mean..look..we have hentai and the graphic novels and they have that for kids to see all over the places and have for 60 years.
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:09 PM
Whenever I watch French or German cop shows and the female lead gets her breasts out, I think that would never happen in the UK.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:09 PM
God bless the Brits. 🙂
Or the French 🙂
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:09 PM
Because we'd stop taking the character seriously.
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 05:09 PM
Its org rules and CO rules for their sims. I'm just saying, specially now, there are no limits and if you're butt hurt by even someone saying damn, you don't belong cause you're to butt hurt already.
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:09 PM
I wish he would. he sent us pier morgan instead
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:09 PM
And yet, most countries have a “watershed” hour in which more sexuality, nudity, and violence are permitted than during the day when children are awake. .
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:10 PM
9pm in the UK.
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 05:10 PM
Neither is getting out of a speeding ticket by giving a BJ no matter how many people in the US say it works or happens its a lie.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:10 PM
This can start in some countries like Australia at 7:30 p.m., Canada and the UK at 9:00 p.m., or the USA at 10:00 or 11:00 p.m. .
If you are curious as to the comprehensive list, go here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watershed_(broadcasting) .
In broadcasting, the watershed is the time of day after which programming aimed towards mature or adult audiences is permitted. In the same way that a geological watershed divides two drainage basins, a broadcasting watershed serves as a dividing line in a schedule between fam...
As if these ratings were not complicated enough, they are further complicated by sims trying to rate themselves. .
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 05:10 PM
7pm CST actually in the US. Depending on the channel, its 24/7
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:10 PM
First, we must clarify that rating systems ARE NOT age restrictions. .
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[PF] CorCordale 14-Nov-20 05:11 PM
I know we're all technically on topic, but could we keep the side commentary down just a smidge
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 05:11 PM
Particularly AMC and FX
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:11 PM
While they may overlap, age restrictions set the minimal age for someone participating in a sim. .
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[PF] CorCordale 14-Nov-20 05:11 PM
I'm having trouble hearing the text.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:11 PM
However, rating systems state what level of writing is permissible. .
I have seen sims with ratings on what purports to be the UK movie system or the USA movie system. So as an example, let’s take a look at a sim that I love dearly, DS5 (https://ds5.sim-metry.net/) – PG15 (as one of its ratings). .
There is no such rating as PG15 in the USA and for an American, so only the age restriction, which specifically states, “No one under 15 admitted.” .
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:12 PM
UK15
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:12 PM
(And welcome the host of DS5, @Beautiful Night)
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 05:12 PM
Actually they ARE age restrictions. No one wants to have someone that's 13(if you can prove it) in a 18+ sim where there's some chick running around with her tits out all the time and rubbing up on that kids character dick.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:12 PM
The “no one under 15 admitted,” shows the difference between age restriction and what level of violence, sexuality, and language is permissible in the sim. .
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[USF] - [●●] RAdm De'luvia 14-Nov-20 05:12 PM
Lawsuit
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[PF] CorCordale 14-Nov-20 05:12 PM
... Ahem.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:13 PM
<---lawyer
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:13 PM
12A in the UK allows people under 12 with parents accompanying.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:13 PM
DS5 also has rated itself under the RPG Rating System as 2-2-2. .
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The Professor 14-Nov-20 05:13 PM
Ahh Mr House with his colourful way of writing
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:13 PM
Does this comport with what PG15 is in the UK? As an American, I cannot say for certain, but I suspect that the 2-2-2 is lower than what is permitted in a PG15 movie in the UK. .
USS Kumari (https://kumari.rpgwriting.com/) is another sim that is run by someone in the UK who has dual ratings. .
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:13 PM
Which is a hang over I'm going to fix, becuase I think its too mild.
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:13 PM
Also, big blockbusters will make cuts to get a PG13/12A rating, even if they might privately moan about it.
Which reminds me of James Bond...
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:14 PM
It uses the RPG Rating System to show 3-2-3 but also says 16+ for mature audiences. .
In the USA, mature audiences is 18+, so what exactly does this mean for simmers? .
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:14 PM
Up until 'The Living Daylights', all the films had PG ratings, despite some nudity.
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:14 PM
I'd say giving examples would be more useful than RPG ratings. E.g. I say, if DeadPool or Game of THrones did it, you can probably do it on DS5
Probably
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:15 PM
'Licence to Kill' then got a 15 for heavy violence including a scene involving a decompression chamber that can't be shown uncut on UK TV.
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[PF] CorCordale 14-Nov-20 05:15 PM
Guys...
Gals...
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:15 PM
There are a number of articles @Stephen Hunter UK that talk about how the line in PG-13 and R in America is practically non-existant
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[PF] CorCordale 14-Nov-20 05:15 PM
Non-Binary Pals...
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:15 PM
@[RPGW] Amanda Rose Reminds me of the 'Philomena' controversy.
They were only allowed one F-bomb for a 12A.
They had two (and two Irish versions) and got a 15.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:16 PM
We can discuss all those discussions at another time. I'm just starting this as a backdrop for ratings.
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:16 PM
OK.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:16 PM
As a final example, I point to Doom of Demona (https://demona.accelsim.com/ ). It rates itself as 2-2-2, but it says that 18+, “Adult discretion is advised.” .
Nova-AZ1 Collaborative Writing Software based on Nova by Anodyne Productions
So just by these examples, we see a lack of uniformity in sim rating. .
The RPG Rating System is the only system that I am personally aware of that tries to create a uniform system of rating for simming. .
Unfortunately, the system is open to interpretation, and to my mind, has too wide of gaps, especially when discussing the level of sexuality permitted in a sim. Therefore, for the remainder of this discussion, I will explore the RPG rating system, potential tweaks, and proposed alternatives. .
On the off chance that anyone is not familiar with the RPG rating system, it can be found here: https://rpgrating.com/create . .
The system is a 0-3 scale for language, sex, and violence. Each trait is handled individually. I am not aware of any sim that has a 0 for any category. Are any of you? .
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[PF] CorCordale 14-Nov-20 05:17 PM
I've never seen one
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[PE] Alexander 14-Nov-20 05:17 PM
I also feel a decent bunch of people use the rating system to say what content is acceptable and the age rating less as a rating but more to say the minimum age of maturity they want for people to have
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:18 PM
And that was my point, @[PE] Alexander - age ratings and simming ratings are different. They overlap in the sense that all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.
💯 1
And like American movies who are terrified of using the NC-17 label, because it means “death” in the box office, I wonder how many people believe that a 3-3-3 or even just a 3 on sexuality equals a “porn ship,” which is something that I will address when I get to a discussion on rating sexuality. .
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[PE] Alexander 14-Nov-20 05:19 PM
Yeah true
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:19 PM
I warn you now, by trade, I am a lawyer, so I am going to dissect the ratings. Some of it may seem overly technical; however, by conducting this technical analysis it may assist you in better defining and rating your sims for the future. .
Let us start with language, which is probably the clearest of the categories, and to me, the most easily scored. 0 represents no cussing allowed. 1 allows infrequent cussing. 2 allows swearing with some limitations 3 says, “swearing and mature language is permitted.” Presumably this means that there are no holds barred. .
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[PE] Alexander 14-Nov-20 05:19 PM
That's fine, I recently completed my law degree 😛
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:19 PM
The most obvious question is, “What is swearing or cussing?” After all, that’s the threshold for the language permitted. .
In your sim, is “God damn it!” swearing? .
While I do not consider it swearing, Some more religious folks, especially in the USA, might believe that it is. .
What about using the word, “crap”? .
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 05:20 PM
Following that rating, I do know of some sims with a 0.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:20 PM
How about using foreign words (in the case of those of us who speak English as a primary language) like “merde,” or “drek”? (BTW, those both mean something relating to human excrement, in case you were not aware.) Do those qualify as swearing? .
How about “putz?” That’s Yiddish for male genitalia. .
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[PF] Gregory 14-Nov-20 05:21 PM
For me, the first one would indeed be swearing, just because it's not being used in a religious context, though I realize that may just be me.
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 05:21 PM
Nope the term God damnit would have gotten my mouth washed out with soap so I got you
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:22 PM
Ah, but this is part of the problem, @[PF] Gregory. That's not what the ratings say for RPG ratings.... We'll get into that some more, I promise. I use that as part of my solution.
Without knowing what that threshold is, or having some sort of agreement on what swearing is, there could be differing interpretations on what is infrequent or limited, let alone as to “permitted.” .
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[PF] Gregory 14-Nov-20 05:22 PM
But at the same time, the rating doesn't say either way, which I think is a part of the problem. (edited)
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 05:22 PM
During the time of when TOS was first on the air, there were seven words that could not be said on television in the USA. The sim group I'm in follow that standard in that those seven words can not be used.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:22 PM
To me, the 1 and 2 ratings look very much alike but there is a huge gap between a 2 and 3 rating where swearing is limited and swearing is permitted. .
LOL @[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver, you speak of the George Carlin skit! In fact, that's the skit that led to the FCC control on TV but still doesn't have it in movies.
Problem is, here, like I said, there's no real guidance on the RPG Rating system.
Let's leave that hanging for a bit.
The RPG rating that I most have issues with is on sex. RPG ratings state that: 0 represents “no sexual content.” 1 represents, “mild sexual innuendo and references permitted.” 2 represents, “sexual content is permitted, with some limitations.” 3 represents, “sexual content may be described in detail.” .
What exactly is “sexual content”? .
This feels like the famous US Supreme Court of Jacobellis v Ohio, in which Justice Stewart famously said, when trying to define the difference between obscenity and pornography, “I know it when I see it.” While this raises a great deal of questions as to what that particular Supreme Court Justice has seen, the RPG rating system essentially adopts his theory, “I know sexual content when I see it.” .
As discussed earlier, that’s a poor definition. What the French thinks is sexual content or the English think is sexual content is definitely not what Americans think is sexual content or definitely not Middle Easterners. .
So, I put it to all of you in considering this, “What is sexual content?” .
Is a peck on the check sexual content? What about “French kissing”? Being nude without describing sexual acts? What does that 0 represent? .
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:26 PM
"Does it give me an erection?"
Also, the Supremes at that time did watch a lot of porn as part of their cases.
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aio 14-Nov-20 05:26 PM
Take it down a notch please Stephen.
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 05:26 PM
For some people describing footwear can lead to that
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:26 PM
I think that's the point
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:27 PM
@aio That was a genuine test used by a British censor.
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Sprite (Dragon Age: Legacy) 14-Nov-20 05:27 PM
'With some limitations " is pretty vague
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:27 PM
As to a 1, “Mild sexual innuendo and references are permitted.” What does that mean? .
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:27 PM
some people are going to find anything sexual. Other's won't think so until someone poking a todger in an orifice
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:27 PM
Is it safe to say, “Let’s take this into the bedroom?” How about something like “I love it when she’s on top?” How about James Bond like names like “Pussy Galore?” What’s the line? .
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:28 PM
That name was controversial at the time and they were nearly forced to cut it.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:28 PM
And that is part of the ultimate problem, isn't it @Beautiful Night and @Sprite (Dragon Age: Legacy) ?
On 2, RPG ratings says that this allows sexual content with some limitations. .
In sims, I have seen this defined in twenty different ways. Some say you have to FADE TO BLACK. Some have allowed some very explicit descriptions of fondling and foreplay but the actual act of sex is not described. Others have described a two to basically allow for sex but no descriptions of genetalia or how the act is performed. .
Oddly, it seems more taboo for men’s penises from being described than women’s breasts, ass, or vagina. Though, as they say, anything down below seems to be the most taboo. .
Regardless, it is clear that 2 has the widest variety of interpretation and therefor the gap between it and a 3 could be cavernous or it could be a small hop, skip, and a jump. Depending on how you define 2, 3 seems to be the number that most people in the simming community stay away from. .
The reason here seems to be if you have a 3 on “sex,” your ship is thought to be a “porn ship.” There is a place for people that want to do that, like in Elliquiy. .
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[PF] Gregory 14-Nov-20 05:30 PM
Back when I used to GM (waaaay back many years before the RPG Rating site and its system), I'd always include a reference in the rules that said that the sim's PG-13 rating was equivalent to what you'd see in one of the later episodes of DS9, precisely to help provide context for an international audience. (edited)
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:30 PM
@[PF] Gregory which is a great idea! In fact, that is part of my recommendations. 🙂
However, one of my ships, the USS Horizon ( http://usshorizon.rpgwriting.com/ ) is a 3 for sexuality. .
Anodyne Productions' premier online RPG management software
Horizon is forever trapped in another galaxy. I thought it was important for my crew to have the greatest ability to describe whatever feelings, expressions, and acts that their characters might have. However, there has been occasional mention that this is not a “porn ship.” We took off the training wheels so that people could write whatever they felt was needed by the moment; however, members know the focus of the sim is not creating sex scenes. I can count on one hand (or maybe two) how many explicit posts we have had to “bulging members,” or “wet pussies,” or the like. Why? Because we are mature enough to understand that the point of the sim is the exploration and handling the adverse situations, not the sexual conduct. .
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 05:32 PM
Star trek is quite vanilla
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:32 PM
The third RPG rating has to do with violence. 0 represents “no violence permitted.” 1 represents, “mild violence permitted.” 2 represents, “violence is permitted, with some limitations.” 3 represents, “explicit violence is permitted.” .
Much of what I wrote regarding sex and swearing applies here. What constitutes violence? A slap? .
When I was growing up, I watched Looney Tunes. Is that mild violence? Or is that limited violence for a 2? Or is that explicit violence? After all, how many times did people get shot, dropped, splatted, or whatever? Is cartoon violence of this sort even violence? .
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[USF] VAdm Killian Sylver 14-Nov-20 05:33 PM
Looney Tunes rock, no dissing them. ::Grins:: Sorry, had to put that in there.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:33 PM
In a Star Trek world, is shooting a phaser deemed to be violence? Or is it the showing of someone dying that is the problem? And if so, how much is it? Depending on what happens they either are dead lying on the floor without blood or phased into nothingness. In some of the movies, though, we see Klingon blood floating about when Klingons are killed. .
RPG Ratings has more flaws than these, however. Where does something like mind control fit in? Is that violent? It could be but not necessarily. I also could argue that’s the equivalent of mind rape and is the most violent thing that you can do. The issue, thus, is not really the “violence” but it is the “depicted result of the violence.” Perhaps a better determining factor is “amount of gore.” .
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[SARP] Wes 14-Nov-20 05:35 PM
I think it's violence if you're shooting it at something (as opposed to heating a rock or blow up a cave wall)
I should say - someONE
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:35 PM
See the previous comment @[SARP] Wes 🙂
Also notably missing from the RPG Rating system is any mention about alcohol, smoking, and drugs. .
Should that be included in violence? Or should it be its own category? .
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 05:36 PM
It is knowing when to fade to black and when not to. I am not not comfortable doing sewing scenes while Amanda may be
Violent scenes ditto
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:37 PM
@Skoll but how how do you describe that to other audiences? After all, French would be quite comfortable with not fading to black where the English or Americans would. There has to be some better definition than "I know it, so you should too."
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 05:38 PM
That comes in to the must reads
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:38 PM
@Skoll Sewing?
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:39 PM
Occasionally I put warnings in the post headers. e.g., I had a rogue symbiont cut itself out of its old host, and forcibly insert itself into its new host. It had shades of croneenberg, so to be on the safe side I added a BODYHORROR tag to the post title
becuase our Doctor can be a little squeamish
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 05:39 PM
I would think its also as a GM knowing your crew well enough to know where the line needs to be drwn
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:39 PM
that we, she knew it would probably be something she wouldn't like
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[PF] Gregory 14-Nov-20 05:39 PM
That's why I like the idea of saying "The sim's rating is equievant to (insert a movie or TV show that the player is likely to have seen)" as part of the definition. If it's something that all potential payers would have likely seen, it provides an across-the-board standard for knowing when it's all right to write something out and when you should probably gloss over the details. (edited)
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:39 PM
It is a conundrum @Mellacastray, hence why this discussion is important. Because it is not just knowing your crew but also advertising for potential crew.
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 05:39 PM
because we all come from diffrent walks of life and some people as pointed out are more sensative to the amount of sex or gore then others
its picking a ship as a character that fits your sensativities as well'
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:40 PM
So given the flaws and variances with all of the rating systems, what can we do to create a more uniform system? Somehow, some way, RPG ratings became the standard. I believe it is up to us to create a new standard. .
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:40 PM
amen
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:40 PM
One potential way for us to rate our sims is by picking a standard such as the MPAA standard, the UK standards, or the Australian standards to rate. .
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 05:41 PM
Sex scenes damn auto corrects
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:41 PM
The problem with that rating system is that something that might be high on violence or language might be low on sexuality, or vice versa. .
Therefore, I propose keeping a structure similar to the RPG rating structure because it has a better chance of letting people know what the sim is about. .
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:41 PM
@Skoll if there are needles in your sex scene, its should probably be a "3" 😂
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:42 PM
lmfao @Beautiful Night
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 05:42 PM
Needles ??
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:42 PM
Sewing....
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Sprite (Dragon Age: Legacy) 14-Nov-20 05:42 PM
AO3 uses a detailed tagging system, so that readers can find what they want to read and avoid what they don't want to see
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[PF] Gregory 14-Nov-20 05:42 PM
RPG Ratings had the right idea, I think, as the intent was to provide a basis for everyone, and you didn't have to learn the movie/TV rating systems of a dozen different countries just to figure things out. I'm just one of those who thinks they didn't go far enough.
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 05:42 PM
👀 LMAO okay was slow on that one
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 05:42 PM
I agree its fade to black rather than description
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:42 PM
I agree @[PF] Gregory
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 05:42 PM
I am a classy fade person myslef
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:42 PM
So, I propose more meaningful descriptions of the levels so that there is more guidance to those who run sims/games and those who write (or are looking to write) in them. Rather than 0-3, I propose a scale of 0-5. Essentially, a 0 should be writing that anyone can enjoy, regardless of age or maturity whereas a 5 is essentially writing something akin to obscene or pornographic materials. Overall, these might be comparable to the following movie ratings: 0 – USA, G; UK, U 1 – USA, PG; UK, PG 2 – USA, PG-13; UK, 12A 3 – USA, R; UK, 15 4 – USA, NC-17; UK, 18 5 – USA, XXX; UK, R18 .
More specifically, it might look something like this: .
Language 0 – Universally and socially acceptable language in a polite society. No perceived swearing or cussing. 1 – Profanity is permitted infrequently but no profane words may be used that refer to sexual subjects 2 – Non-sexual profanity is generally permitted. Infrequent use of profanity that has sexual undertones or reference is allowed. 3 – Common use of profanity with sexual undertones or reference is allowed. Sexually graphic language is infrequently permitted. 4 – Sexually graphic language may be used commonly in certain scenes but is not common throughout the sim. 5 – No limitations on language .
Sexuality/Mature Content 0 – Universally and socially acceptable public displays of affection such as a quick kiss are allowed. 1 – If any nudity is shown, it is extremely briefly and not displayed for sexual purposes. Sex may be implied but is handled off screen. 2 – Sexually oriented nudity is generally absent; however, sexual reference are permitted and may briefly have sexually oriented foreplay written. 3 – Sexual activity may be described but without strong detail. Sexual violence should rarely be displayed but may be if discreet AND justified by context. 4 – Explicit sexual activity is permitted but is not common throughout the sim. Sexual violence may be displayed in greater frequency but should not touch on topics involving torture or extreme fetishes. 5 – No limitations on sexual conduct. .
Depictions of Blood/Gore/Violence/Drugs 0 – Universally acceptable levels of violence and blood. Injuries should be minor and death should not occur on screen other than one that is honorable and shows no blood and only potentially the briefest violence. 1 – No drug use. Horror and violence should be minimal and not generally involve death. Maiming is only appropriate if germane to story line and handled sensitively. 2 – Brief scenes of drug use, smoking, and alcohol permitted but should not be a focus. Drunkenness may be seen. Blood, gore, and violence may be seen but generally should be related to plot and not gratuitous or for shock value. 3 – Brief scenes of hard drug use. No limitations on other drugs, alcohol, or addiction. Blood, gore, and violence may be gratuitous. 4 – No limitations on drugs. Violence may occasionally be excessively graphic. 5 – No limitations on blood, gore, violence, or drugs. .
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 05:45 PM
This is your 15-minute warning
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:45 PM
And while this proposed system may be a better rating system than the current RPG rating system, I am more than certain that holes can be poked into it. No system is going to be perfect. .
However, if the idea is to give our writers the greatest amount of information on what to expect on joining a sim or when writing in a sim, this goes a long way towards improving our current state. .
Certainly, each CO/GM is going to have to make adjustments and potentially better explain nuances of their ratings so that players are on notice of what to expect, regardless of the rating system. .
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 05:46 PM
I always rate my games as r18 for readon
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[PE] Alexander 14-Nov-20 05:46 PM
Beyond per sim modifications, I also feel each organization should take a look at the kind of content they usually see and make major adaptations based on that
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 05:46 PM
But there is a legality to that
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[PE] Alexander 14-Nov-20 05:47 PM
I mean I rate all my sims 18+ because I don't really like writing with minors, but that's not related to the content ratings
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[SARP] Wes 14-Nov-20 05:47 PM
My whole site has moved to 18+ - basically letting underage people in adds complexity I no longer want to deal with. It's not that the site has much adult content (and you have to sign up for it to even see those corners of the site) but more so just legal/privacy concerns.
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:48 PM
I generally stick to a 15 rating myself.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:48 PM
Allowing anyone in under 17 has nothing to do with ratings but as others have stated, have legal problems all of their own. This has nothing to do with this discussion on what the ratings should look like.
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:49 PM
but a lot of people do assume if you're not an 18+ sim, there could well be under 18s on board
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:49 PM
And that is an assumption, we, as a community must do something about.
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 05:49 PM
I work on jcink so I may be analysing about age than others I am looking for mature content
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June 14-Nov-20 05:50 PM
What about people under age that lie to get in?
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:51 PM
And that's a great thing to understand @Skoll. Ratings and age restrictions are not the same.
@June, not a discussion on age. Let's leave it out, please.
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June 14-Nov-20 05:51 PM
Mmk
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 05:51 PM
So, everyone, as we get ready to wrap up this incredibly informative panel, let's remember that we're not talking about age restrictions in this panel. This panel has focused completely on content ratings.
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 05:51 PM
People under age can lie but the way they write will give them away eventually
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 05:51 PM
Save your age restriction discussion for another time
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[SARP] Wes 14-Nov-20 05:52 PM
I think they're inherently connected as even the examples given mentioned ages.
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 05:52 PM
You read an app and can't get an idea of what they are like as a player?
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:52 PM
There is overlap @[SARP] Wes where all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.
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[PF] CorCordale 14-Nov-20 05:52 PM
Right, but this is a discussion about the evaluation of the rating system.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:52 PM
That's the important thing to understand.
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[PF] CorCordale 14-Nov-20 05:53 PM
Not a discussion as to how to sniff our age violations
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:53 PM
Thank you for “listening” today. I'd personally like to thank @[PF] Amethyst and @Beautiful Night for some of their inspirations in building this presentation. If you have any questions or comments, I look forward to receiving them now.
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Sprite (Dragon Age: Legacy) 14-Nov-20 05:54 PM
Informative panel, thank you!
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 05:54 PM
As a gm you give yourself as much protection as you can and prepare yourself for when you are wrong
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:54 PM
You're welcome @Sprite (Dragon Age: Legacy). Thank you for coming.
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 05:54 PM
Very informative and I absolutely loved the revised rating system
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 05:54 PM
Thank you Id love a copy of this transcript when it come available please
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[PF] Gregory 14-Nov-20 05:54 PM
Yes, very interesting discussion.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:55 PM
Thank you @Deleted User - worked on it for about a week. 🙂
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Reminder BOT 14-Nov-20 05:55 PM
This is your 5-minute warning. Consider moving the conversation to the appropriate overflow room.
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 05:55 PM
I do have a question
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Mellacastray 14-Nov-20 05:55 PM
Well they did a great job
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Stephen Hunter UK 14-Nov-20 05:55 PM
@[RPGW] Amanda Rose Very interesting.
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:55 PM
Go for it @Deleted User
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 05:55 PM
Rating is one thing, you as a person know when something is wrong
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Deleted User 14-Nov-20 05:55 PM
Even with the content rating system in place, does it make sense to use a trigger flair to help emphasize any content-related concerns a reader may have?
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:55 PM
@Skoll, that's enough please.
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[PF] Amethyst 14-Nov-20 05:56 PM
@Skoll this was not about individuals
This panel was a discussion of RPG ratings.
Please keep it on topic.
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Skoll 14-Nov-20 05:56 PM
I take your point Amanda and this is not about individuals this is about judgement.
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[PF] Gregory 14-Nov-20 05:56 PM
I don't think there's anything wrong with adding additional warnings at the beginning of a specific post if it goes more towards the "mature" end of things.
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Just to answer @Deleted User's question.
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Beautiful Night 14-Nov-20 05:57 PM
Not at all. I've seen it done on several simms
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[RPGW] Amanda Rose 14-Nov-20 05:57 PM
Trigger flairs cut both ways, @Deleted User. They do what they are intended to do, alert to content that some might find offensive.